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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:15 am 
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Location: Southeastern Kentucky
First name: Andy
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I decided a couple of years ago that I was going to endeavor to build an acoustic guitar. I bought books by Courtnall and Bogdanovic to help me along. I've also done a lot of research online. I'm pretty confident that I can make a reasonably good guitar.

As luck would have it, my daughter, who will soon be 7 years old, has shown a strong interest in guitar and music in general. Being the loving father that I am, I think it only fitting that my first instrument should be for her :D . Because she is still very small, I bought plans from LMII to make the Torres 1888 short scale (604mm) parlor guitar for her.

I think I'm about ready to start in earnest, but I wanted to bounce some of my ideas off the pros here first. I haven't bought or produced any of the wood yet so I'll start there. I'm thinking of making the guitar of a Spanish Cedar neck, Purpleheart back and sides (purple is my daughter's 2nd favorite color...behind pink) and a very light-colored spruce top. I think this combination will make a very attractive combination for her. Since this is my first build, I'm not going to "waste" master grade or premuim grade materials and just go with 2nd grade stuff. I also want to make the bridge and veneer the headstock with Purpleheart. I realise that Purpleheart has a very coarse pore structure and pore filling will be required. I guess I'd like some feedback on how the combination of Purpleheart and Spruce will affect the guitar's overall sound and the general workability of Purpleheart.

I plan to finish the guitar with shellac...hopefully in the French Polish method. I'm not sure how that would turn out though. But I'd like to try. Any other suggestions on the finish would be appreciated.

As for my "shop"...it's really just a workspace in my basement. I have a workbench, vise and another countertop to work on. I have a fairly basic assortment of tools: miter saw, planer, jointer, router, some chisels, jeweler's saw, a few clamps, straight edge, etc. I realize that I'll probably have to purchase a few more hand tools as I don't have any scrapers or a saw for sawing the fretlines in the fretboard. I also have no way to bend the sides...that's the most daunting part to me, having never done it.

Well, wish me luck. And again, any ideas/feedback that I can gather from this forum will be accepted with the utmost humility and gratitude. I'll be sure to post pictures as the build goes along.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:42 am 
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First name: Kevin
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I'm no pro but I have a few comments:

You didn't mention it but you'll need a hygrometer so you can accurately measure the humidity while building.

I've done a little woodworking with purpleheart in the past. It's a pretty hard wood with interlocking grain so it doesn't like to be planed. The color turns purple after it oxidizes but is more of a deep red when freshly cut. I'd recommend getting a piece to experiment with finishing on. You also need to pay attention when cutting or routing because it will burn and turn black.

Dive in & have fun.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:46 am 
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Welcome to the addiction. :D

It sounds like you have a very ambitious first build planned out. If I ready the description right for the plans you ordered from LMI, the Torres 1888 short scale is a flamenco guitar. Interesting choice.

I can't really help you out on the sound profile of PH or its bending properties. Sorry. For tools, you may consider what you are going to use to cut the binding and the rosette. As far as a fretboard goes, why not order a slotted one from LMI?

Good luck on your build. I think you will find it to be a very rewarding process. Post lots of pictures here and any questions you may have. This is a great forum and one that can really help you through any rough patches you may encounter.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:22 pm 
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Hi Andy - Congradts on starting your first build, it's a very rewarding experience. Starting out I think the most important tool is knowledge, so buy every book/dvd you can get your hands on, and get on this forum and ask questions often. I havent read the books you are referring to but I strongly recommend the Cumpiano/Natelson book. It shows step by step how to build a classical and steel string style guitar, and lists all the basic tools you will need. Sounds like you have alot of what you need already but you will need fretting tools and a bending iron. You can buy electric bending irons or make your own using a steel pipe and a blow torch (as in Cumpiano/Natelson). Get more clamps, hand planes, and a good sharpening system, and you should be good to go. Also, you might consider making a go-bar deck. I second the idea of having LMI slot your fretboards, that job is a pain to do by hand and takes forever. Good luck.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:37 pm 
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Sounds like you have most of the tools you need. Definitely more clamps are needed.....and then more clamps :P
You have a router so you can make (or buy) a circle cutting jig for the rosette and an edge guide jig for the binding.
I haven't used purpleheart...but bending isn't that hard. My bending iron is just a piece of pipe with a heat-gun mounted on a board.
Spanish cedar is a good neck wood but a bit soft. Great for guitars that are handled carefully, but it can dent if the neck meets the edge of a table or something. All depends how careful your daughter will be with it ;) Smells great when cutting.
Shellac is a good choice too. It sands easily so you can always fix any problem and try again.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:52 pm 
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+1 on Cumpiano. Very detailed building instructions with a minimum of power tools.

Good luck.

Steve


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:12 pm 
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Sounds like you're in for a good time :)

I can't find any pictures of that 1888 plan, but I've built one based on this 1863 Torres http://www.vintageguitar.com/3434/antonio-de-torres-1863/, and turned out very good. Here's the build thread for it http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10130&t=34382&start=0. The scale length is 25"/635mm, but it could be shortened to 24"/609mm no problem, I think.

And I'm doing another of the same model for the current build challenge http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10133&t=37308. This one is spruce and maple (at first Italian spruce, but I ended up switching to engelmann). I almost decided to try the 24" scale, but ended up deciding to make it an exact duplicate since I've never built two of the same model before, and it will be interesting to see how the different woods affect the sound. I'd recommend engelmann if you're going for light color. It is very soft though, so expect to be steaming out some dents.

I haven't worked with purpleheart, but by my estimation it will be a pain, so good luck with that.

If you can find some pink ivory bindings, I think that would be perfect for this. But practice bending on some other wood, since PI is expensive and hard to come by, and bindings like to crack when bending. Black cherry would be a good cheap alternative color-wise, I think.

I love shellac finish. I just wrote a post about my current method the other day http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=490797#p490797

Clamp-wise, my favorites are cam clamps http://usaclamp.com/CamClampPage.aspx. Two each of 4" and 8", three 6".

Side bending, I use a scrap of exhaust pipe from a local muffler shop, mounted to a scrap of wood with L brackets, with an electric charcoal starter stuck into it, run through a dimmer switch for temperature control. There's a picture of it in that coral snake thread here http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=462162#p462162

And yes, make sure the humidity is low when you start gluing braces and building up the box. Especially a guitar for a kid, you don't want her to have to baby it to keep it from cracking in the dry winter months.

Good luck and have fun!


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:53 am 
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Hi Andy,

This is a great project for a young person!

I've helped several teenagers through building personal guitars, and if I can offer a bit of input, it would be this: start with a more classic wood, that is easy to bend, plane, pore-fill, and work, in general. And one that will give you a more 'classic' look when completed. It took me weeks to talk one teenager OUT of using Purple Heart last year, and in the end, he was so glad that he changed his mind (or that we 'negotiated' a change of plans).

There are some PH guitars out there, and some people may like the look of them, but in general, it's something that your daughter may like now, but not like any more when she's an adult. Whereas rosewood or mahogany would fit the bill better, in many ways. And with some patience, some help along the way, and many, many hours of work, you will have a guitar that will last her a long, long time. Better to be happy in the long-run than in the immediate future - though admittedly, that is a hard sell on a young person.

Just my .02 ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:21 am 
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Hi andy,
I'm about to start a new steel string build using PH as a bridge. Should be interesting.
I would advise not to buy a second grade soundboard because it's your first build. I made that mistake myself and after all the months (nearly a year) of work I just wished I'd used a higher grade soundboard because you always think the guitar would sound better if you had. Buy the best you can. As you live in the US, your lucky as soundboards are so much cheaper than what I can buy in the UK.
Anyway, good luck and as advised before, read up alot or better still, go on a course.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:55 am 
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IMHO second grade soundboards may very well sound better then a master grade one. It just won't look as perfect. Purple Heart is a bit more difficult but it looks great. Epoxy makes a great filler and if you don't like toxic chemicals then egg whites work very well. I only just started to French Polish after years of using water base finishes and lacquer. I like it so much that that's all I really want to do now. It's not really all that difficult but it will take some time.

+1 on getting a hydrometer
+1 on reading Cumpiano and Natelson


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:55 am 
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Thanks for all the great advice! I made a mistake in my OP...it is the Cumpiano book that I have...not Courtnall. It is an awesome reference. I've read through it twice over the past couple of years.

The Purpleheart is intimidating. I'll really consider choosing another wood. I have two cherry boards that I milled myself that I could use for the sides. They're about 7" wide by about 48" long by about 1/8" thick. I cut them from a tree that had fallen on my father-in-laws property a few years ago. They're good and dry. And I love working with cherry. Does it bend well? My daughter doesn't know of my plans to build the guitar yet, so she doesn't get to voice an opinion on the choice of woods :D . If I can come up with some cherry to make the back, I might just go with that. I'm really attracted to the idea of having milled my own wood for this anyway.

For those of you that have made parlor-sized guitars, do you prefer a spruce or a cedar top? The smaller body of the parlor would decrease the bass and accentuate the treble. Would a cedar top be more appropriate to "mellow out" the sound overall and not make it too bright sounding?

The pink ivory suggestion is a good one. I had actually thought of that. Thanks for the suggestion nonetheless.

My workspace is somewhat climate controlled. We run a dehumidifier during the summer months set to 50% RH. But I certainly agree that a decent hygrometer is needed.

DennisK...thank for posting those links. I'll definitely check them out.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:50 am 
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I've built three of the Torres SE117 guitars that you are referring to. These are great little guitars, next time that I build this body size I am going to make the FE18 version.

They are small guitars, not children's guitars, so it will continue to be relevant even when she is an adult. There were no "flamenco" guitars at that time, that division occurred later. The original SE117 had a Cypress body which may cause some confusion, but many contemporary builders are using Cypress on classicals as good wood is good wood.

The C & N book is pretty good, but if you are pursuing classical guitars then the Courtnall book really is a must.

If the Purpleheart proves to be too much, then maple wold be a great choice. Any of the soft maples wold work easily and bend agreeably.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:42 am 
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Don't be too afraid of purpleheart, it's not that bad. It's better than wenge, and that's gotten popular lately. I've used purpleheart quite a bit for necks, usually as the center laminate. It shouldn't be that difficult to bend, but I've never actually bent it. The thickness will be important, I'd go less than .08" for the sides, probably closer to .06". The back can be a little thicker, but I'd still go less than .10". Bending sides is a little intimidating, but it really is not that hard. I use a bending form with light bulbs as the heat source, and I augment that with a regular clothes iron on the outside. No heating blanket, no wrapping the side with foil and making a sandwich. Use the iron to heat up the waist area until it can be clamped down on the bending form. Then use the iron to bend the upper bout down onto the form and clamp it in place, then the lower bout. Let the light bulbs cook it for 20 minutes, then let it cool. I usually plug the lights in for another 20 minutes after it has cooled. Spritzing with water usually helps, but some woods bend better dry.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:05 am 
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DennisK...just got through reading your Coral Snake build...AWESOME! I love the intimate sound of that guitar. If my build turns out half that good, I'll be ecstatic.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:37 am 
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Andy, I am in the middle of my first build right now. Though I do have the Cumpiano book, I have learned much more from this forum and being in the shops of other builders. I have been impressed at how readily builders will share techniques, successes and failures with a genuine desire to help others succeed. Ask lots of questions!

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:35 pm 
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Quote:
I've built three of the Torres SE117 guitars that you are referring to. These are great little guitars, next time that I build this body size I am going to make the FE18 version.


Did you use cedar or spruce for the top (or have you tried both)? I'm still torn between the two. I like the looks of a blonde spruce top, but I'm thinking the cedar would sound better with a guitar this size (to round out the tone some). Thoughts anyone?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:01 am 
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Quote:
I'd recommend engelmann if you're going for light color. It is very soft though, so expect to be steaming out some dents.


Okay...here goes my first "technical" question.

How exactly do you steam out a dent? I have one of those clothes steamers for getting wrinkles out of clothes while still on the hanger. Would that work? It emits a swath of steam that is about 4" wide. Is that too much steam? Would I need to be able to concentrate the steam to the area of the dent?

As for the back/sides, I think I've decided to cut down some cherry boards that I have access to...same tree as the sides that I have. Still not decided on a spruce or cedar top though. Since I do happen to have access to a good stock of cherry, I might go ahead and try to make 2 guitars at once, one cedar and one spruce, that way I'll be covered if I make a fatal flaw. I seem to recall that I cut some 3" x 3" x ~48" stock from this tree. If I can find it, I might just go ahead and make the neck from the cherry as well. And then, of course, I'd be likely to make the bridge from cherry. But would cherry be hard enough for bridge material? Janka hardness is 950. I've seen walnut bridges...janka is 1010 for walnut. So maybe?

I'd love to land some Persimmon for the fretboard, but that's kinda hard to find. So many options eek .


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:03 am 
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NOt sure how others do it, but I use a low power soldering iron and a small piece of wet rag - place teh wet(not dripping) rag over the dent and then gently press the soldering iron on to the rag over the dent - the hiss is the steam but be careful - just a second or so and then repeat - you dont want to burn the wood, so make sure you keep the rag wet/moist and most dents will steam out provided the fibres are not broken.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:14 am 
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Hi Andy,

I am in the process or building the Torres 1888 model (as indicated by others, this is Torres' SE117 - see Jose Romanillos' book on Torres) for my grand daughter. It is in curly maple with bubinga binding. I am at the point of starting finishing. I think it will make a great little guitar. I think Waddy said that this is not a flamenco - concur.

Best of luck,
Max

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:37 am 
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For steaming, I take a little piece of paper towel folded a couple times and dipped in water, and place it over the dent. Then put a little water in a pan and boil it on the stove, and touch the pan to the paper towel. No need for special tools, and no risk of scorching :)

Cherry back/sides ought to be great. Easy to work, and great tap tone. Underrated as a tonewood, IMO. Also good for necks. It seems a little soft for a bridge to me. If you do try it, at least put some extra meat in front of the saddle slot to reduce the chance of splitting it off.

As for the fingerboard, persimmon is indeed hard to come by. Actually, most of the good domestic fingerboard woods are. But there are plenty of exotics hard enough for the task that can be found at most hardwood stores, and of course you can order blanks from luthier suppliers.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:28 am 
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miramadar wrote:
Quote:
I've built three of the Torres SE117 guitars that you are referring to. These are great little guitars, next time that I build this body size I am going to make the FE18 version.


Did you use cedar or spruce for the top (or have you tried both)? I'm still torn between the two. I like the looks of a blonde spruce top, but I'm thinking the cedar would sound better with a guitar this size (to round out the tone some). Thoughts anyone?


I made two of them with WRC and one with White Cedar. The White cedar has the softness and lightness of cedar but the colouration of spruce. I don't think that your client will care much whether it is spruce or cedar! I have used both but not on this particular size of guitar. I am inclined to use Spruce these days, I like the sparkle.

Whichever you choose, consider that a small soundboard will be inherently stiffer than a large one, so your final shaping will need to be based upon how flexible the whole thing is with the bridge one. When you push down on the bridge wings with your thumbs there should be some give. Determining just how much is based upon your experience, but it should feel supple and resilient, not too stiff or too sloppy.

Cherry will be great for the body, its colour will be modest initially, but slowly over time it will become darker and richer. I've only used Chery for one guitar so far and the sound potential is really good. I'd be inclined to use bindings which will set this off. I find that Ziricote makes nice dark bindings and is pretty easy to bend. Makes great fingerboards and bridges, too.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:40 pm 
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FWIW, I've used purpleheart for fingerboards a couple times. It works just fine. Most people don't want a purple fretboard... I've read Gibson made fretboards from purpleheart dyed black for a time. I don't know if it's true.

+1 on Cumpiano and Natelson

And you always need more clamps than you think.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:40 pm 
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-1 on Cumpiano and Natelson

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:22 pm 
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-1 on Cumpiano and Natelson



Why minus 1?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:45 pm 
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Just not my favorite resource, but I'm a classical builder, not a steel string builder.

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