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I have found myself in a situation, and I need the help of you with experience (on either side of the warranty).

SO... Late last year I built a guitar for a guy I know, and I feel I went out of my way to accommodate him, because he really doesn't have much in the way of finances. (I even loaned him my flight case, which he promised to arrange to get back to me in a couple of months. I still haven't seen it.) Anyway, all that aside, he took delivery of the guitar just before Christmas, was really happy with it. He phoned a few months later to say that the bridge was lifting up. I had used fish glue, so I asked him how the guitar was stored. He explained that it was kept out of a case, in a non-air-conditioned house, where the temperature goes about 108 degrees, and the humidity goes above 80%.

I would have thought that keeping the guitar in a case with a dehumidifier would be the only obvious way to store it in such conditions. I told him that would be the best course of action, because I know that he has a nice case, but he told me that the guitar wouldn't get played much, and that it would kind of defeat the purpose of having the guitar if it was continually kept in its case. I told him I would take a look at the guitar when I saw him in the summertime.

Fast forward to this past week. He called me again, and in the course of our conversation, he told me that he had taken the guitar on a big gig, and because he couldn't afford the bridge coming off, he used superglue to hold it on. The superglue had messed up the finish behind the bridge a bit, so he needed both issues looked at. I told him that the glue I used would release with heat and moisture, but superglue wouldn't, so it would be a much more difficult repair than if he had left it alone.

I am to meet him this week (he lives very far away, and only comes to my area a couple of times a year), and I will see the guitar then. I don't know the extent of the gap underneath the bridge, nor the extent of the damage to the finish.

What do I offer this guy? In my mind, he voided any warranty by keeping the guitar in such adverse conditions, but I could have even looked past that if he had left well enough alone, and stored the guitar properly after that. I would have been willing to remove the bridge and glue it back down for free, EXCEPT that he flatly disregarded my advice about how to store it. In addition, he compounded the bridge problem, and added the problem of the lacquer behind the bridge.

I'm confident that I can do a good job of the repair, but I don't feel he is entitled to getting it done for free. The other part of the situation is that he is only in my area for a little while- I believe he will have to take his place in the lineup of my projects (at this time, he is fourth), so it will not be a rush job that takes priority ahead of my other projects, and even my day job. In order to get this all done in a week or so, I would have to take time off my day job, which doesn't seem fair to anyone over here.

I want very much to be fair and upright in my dealings. I have returned an instrument or on warranty issues myself, and I have deeply appreciated the companies that took my problem seriously, and dealt with the problem completely. (In two situations, the company in question replaced my instrument.)

Here's my most basic question: How much of this repair should be covered under warranty, and how much should I charge for the rest? Again, I haven't seen the guitar, so I am assuming the worst- that I have to rout off the bridge, refinish the top or at least a good part of it, and replace the bridge.

Sorry to write such a long story, and thank you to all those who took the time to read it.

There is a fine line between going the extra mile and becoming someone's "welcome mat". If you are certain that the humidity has indeed been around 80% then damage will occur and you are not responsible for it as that is negligence. I would donate a couple hours of my time for free for this individual and let them know that in doing so you are going beyond what others would do in this scenario. Any additional time spent in repairing the instrument should be at full price. Clearly explain that the instrument needs to be properly taken care of or these problems will happen again. If they don't like it, then tell them to buy a cheap laminate instrument or a carbon fiber instrument that can handle the abuse.

It is a tough situation, with him being a friend. I have built for a friend or two and gave them a very low price because of it. It probably is to late now but when I build in those situations I tell them no warranty at that price.

If it was me I would fix the bridge and give him a price for the finish and tell him in the future the warranty will be void when the damage is a result of use/abuse

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

Here in Maryland the humidity in the summer can commonly go around 75 to 80 % R.H., but the temperature rarely goes above 100 degrees. At what point "normal climatic conditions" become abuse depends somewhat on where you live.
Had he left the "damage" in the state it originally was (a simple bridge reglue) I think it would be reasonable to do the work as a warranty issue. Since he has compounded the problem by supergluing the bridge and finish any thing you might do for him for free is a gift. Many policies specify that the warranty is void if the item has been worked on by someone other than an authorized entity. This is to avoid the superglue syndrome.
Depending how much of a friend you want to be , you might wind up gritting your teeth and doing the work. I wouldn't miss time over it, and if he wants it done in a hurry, he might have to take it elsewhere.

My warranty would not cover any of that. It is a case of neglect and poor judgement. He even went against your good advice on how to store a nice instrument. Being that he is a "friend" makes it a bit difficult. Personally, I would have to charge him for it. That is way beyond your responsibility in the standard warranty against "defects in craftsmanship and material" that most people have. That is blatant disregard for the quality of the guitar.

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ELEVATE || Next Level Lutherie
http://elevatelutherie.com
&
http://ensorguitars.com

The question I have is what does the written warranty you gave him with the guitar say?

If your warranty does not cover abuse and states so then I would charge him for the repairs, all of it, especially as he disregarded your storage advice.

Some companies include written care instructions on how to avoid abusing the instrument.

It might be a good idea to record care instructions in the warranty, and make them a part of the warranty conditions.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

In some ways you are fortunate that he has admitted to keeping the Guitar in those conditions. Warranties regarding humidy/temperature are always going to be problematic, largely because you have no real evidence of the storage conditions.

I don't have much advice to add to your current situation except that probably what I'd do is just suck it up, do the repair and make it clear that anything in the future will be charged for. Chalk this up to experience.

That said, you should probably make a one or two pager describing how to take care of your instruments as previously mentioned.

I also found these: http://paperthermometer.com/default/pro ... eries.html which might be useful for all of us who are selling instruments with a warranty. You can glue it on the inside and even tell the customer that it's there. If the thermometer is set, warranty is void. Phone makers do this all the time.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

You tell him very plainly, that this kind of failure is not covered and is due to improper treatment of the guitar. I would offer to repair it for a nominal fee. The superglue alone is bad enough.

The guy is abusing your relationship (and the guitar)

I've only sold a few guitars but I made and sold composite aircraft propellers for twenty years. I established a policy that seemed to work very well.

Customers abuse things and, with propellers, most of time it was obvious if they did because under a microscope there is nearly always evidence of impacts or organic matter where there shouldn't be organic matter. That didn't stop many of them from attempting to clean an impacted propeller and then fabricate a story. In the cases where there was incontrovertable evidence of abuse I'd write a report listing that evidence and then return their broken propeller if they didn't want a new one.

I never offered a warranty replacement or rejected a claim without inspecting the article in question.

In the rare cases where I suspected abuse but there was no clear evidence of abuse I happily repaired or replaced the product. This was the only fair way to treat people. Now...knuckleheads would push their airplanes around on the ground by grabbing the prop or worse...bend it over their knees to see how strong it was...after being instructed NOT to...then they'd go out and fly only to have the small cracks they started on the ground propgate into a failure. So....I could pretty much KNOW abuse occured but I could not PROVE it...in which case I'd defer to the customer.

All this goes to the idea of creating a firm policy that defers to the customer when there is any chance to do so. I would add however that if you are not firm about warranty issues in the case of KNOWN abuse...well...no matter what you may choose to believe about people..there is a significant percentange of them that will take full advantage of a good heart.

Be firm. Be fair. Have integrity and sleep well.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

Lincoln,
A little while back when I met you, you seemed like a really nice guy - in fact you seemed like the kind of nice guys I know who get taken advantage of ...because of it..
Now this guy seems like a bit of a tool - when you told him to keep the guitar in the case at that humidityand temp, he replied that the guitar wont get played much if its in the case?????... you should have told him "to get in the HABIT of taking it out of its case before playing it.." or forget about the warranty period!
and also that he wont have a guitar to play period after a couple years of keeping it that way!!
This guy is a playing, gigging, musician? and he wouldnt take his guitar out of the case to play or rehearse?
A case you lent him and he wont return BTW!!???
When I get the itch to play I would chop through a tree to get to my guitar... its an irresistable, addictive, urge..
& Im not even gigging, but when I was Id play obsessively to hone my chops,,, no matter where my guitar would be I would retrieve it.. and no matter what I needed to do to care for my instuments I would Always Do IT!!
Anyhow this guy needs to be taught a lesson in abusing friendships, and abusing guitars - I would tell him to bring the guitar AND case so you can have a look at it - then assess the damage - deduct a bridge reglue from the bill total and give him the rest of the bill or bill estimate!!! and when you return the guitar - keep the case - tell him you need it back, even if you dont - otherwise I garuantee youll never see it again...
I just know these kind of guys, truly...
Cheers
Charliewood

Don't we all.

The first scratch built guitar I sold was to a guy like that. Left out in 100 degree heat and 90% humidity right away. Green frets, swollen like a balloon. Then all winter in front of a wood stove with no humidification. Bridge reglue, neck reset. I gave him the lecture and written instructions, didn't help.

He finally said "you know I don't take good care of my stuff, I don't deserve to own this guitar". I said "I agree". Your client sounds like the same type.

He sold it a professional touring folkie Tim Fast, and 8 years later it's still his main ax. It's doing fine and Tim loves it.

I never charged the original owner but learned a priceless lesson. Some folks are not capable of taking care of a good instrument. Fix it, charge him for the extra time dealing with the CA damage and tell him to sell it and get something from Taiwan made out of plywood.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Sometimes you take the hit. The 2nd guitar I sold the owner called a week after he'd gotten it and told me the neck had two 'dents' in it. Funny he didn't mention them to me when he got it but hey, I hated to disappoint him. I knew a good builder that lived near him (we lived clear across the country from each other) so we agreed to have him take it to him and I would cover the cost. The other builder called and told me he'd found a capo in the case with a worn out pad that perfectly matched the dents.....
I told him not to mention it to the owner, but please throw the capo away.

In your case I'd fix it gratis but tell him that he's abusing both the guitar and you and that was all the fixing you were going to be doing on that guitar. And get your case back first or the deal's off.

If I'm reading correctly you built this guitar for a "friend" for a discounted price, then he hasn't returned your case. If this it right, get your case back, take the guitar back, refund him what ever purchase price you gave him, then break what's left of the guitar over his head. If he wants another guitar double your price, and tell him you've got a 10 year waiting list. I take care of my good clients, but I don't put up with any crap from jerks, and I've got a fairly long wait list.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

Well, let's not trash this guy too hard without hearing his angle. He may be reasonable, we haven't heard his response yet.
If it were me, I'd agree to fix the bridge (once!) for a case of beer or whatnot, but any finish issues from the superglue are on him. Maybe he won't care about cosmetics... You haven't seen it, so it may not be too bad. Depending on what kind of finish you used, you may be able to scrape/sand/ rebuff without having to refinish.
And then tell him firmly but politely that further instances of neglect will incurr a charge.
As to the case, you're getting it back when he drops off the guitar for repair, yes?
Offer to help him choose one of his own to ship it back to him in. I'd even throw in my time for going to a store to pick it up in for nada. As long as you don't have to front the cash...

Thank you all for your input and advice. I admit, I had to laugh out loud at some of the comments.

It was encouraging to see that there are other people who are or have been in the same boat as me, and also to hear that there are other folks willing to go the extra mile and be generous even when the problem may not be theirs.

Just a couple of points:

-I have no way of proving or disproving the temperature or humidity. I am going strictly on his word for that. He is in Panama, where he lives and works most of the year, so I can appreciate the climate conditions, but I wish he had taken a little better care of the guitar. Maybe I assumed he would treat the guitar as fragile, but because I did not specify how the guitar was to be kept, I can't be too hard on him for that.

-He is not exactly a friend. He is an acquaintance of several of the people I work with, and his business relationship with Bow River Woods pre-dates my work here. Small issue, but I thought I would clarify it.

-He is due back here in Chilliwack Friday or Saturday of this week, and I plan to give him an estimate then. My best guess is that I will charge him $150 for the hassle of the bridge removal and the finish repair, and I will get the case back, or charge him for it. Because I will specify that the work may not be done before he has to go back to South America, I will have all the time I need to do the work at a relaxed pace. When he comes back in another 6 months or so, I will collect the money for the work before he gets the guitar back.

Thanks again for your help and ideas! I'll let you all know how this turns out.

Also, CA is heat reversible, it just requires more heat. Kinda scary in that area, though. Maybe you can find a solvent that will soften the glue but not your finish...

Good point, Meddling. I knew that CA does release, because I have had it let go when I tried to fix a side that was not quite bent the way I wanted it. However, like you say, I didn't want to apply that kind of heat to the bridge area.

As to the case, he is welcome to buy it for what it cost me. I don't mind either way, as long as I don't have to take back a case that is in much worse condition than I let it out in.

Right on!

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wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah

Building for friends and family can be a bit of a PITA - they tell you to get it done when ever you can get around to it, but they start getting antsy after a couple of months go by and you haven't started. They are your buddies when they get the good price, but they are the customer if something is wrong!
For my cabinetry business, I've quit doing the "buddy" deals, and write a contract with price and completion date for everyone, family included. I'm building a kitchen for my nephew, and I told him to treat me like a contractor because I am treating him like a customer, although he can't tell me to F off, and I can tell his Dad on him.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Kick him in his junk and take the guitar back. Mock him for abusing it and then kick him again.

I built a guitar for my brother. He has only ever complained that the action is high in the summer. I made him a second saddle but he never puts it in. He also never changes his strings. I kicked him. Right in his junk.
I'm not very nice.

Andy,
Those paper thermometer things are brilliant! Great evidence to void a warranty if some dope leaves the guitar in a car!
I am going to add these to my guitars with a disclaimer in the warranty that says something like this:
All Costa Guitars come with a temperature sensitive element that produces a non-reversible white to black color change at a temperature of 105*F. If you bring in your guitar for a heat related issue and the temperature sensor has been tripped, your warranty is voided and I will probably kick you in your junk. I'll probably kick you again just as you are recovering from kick #1. Consider it retribution for abusing the poor, defenseless guitar I entrusted to you. Jerk face.

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

"...start spreadin' the neewwws...."

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Dave
Milton, ON

You should add something like "Removal of the temperature sensitive element will also void your warranty and earn you another kick in the junk even if the guitar doesn't have any heat related damage".

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

So if one was to use a temperature sensitive label, what would be a good temperature threshold to choose?
Maybe we could add a label that would spontaneously combust above a certain temperature and take the guitar with it. No more warranty concerns!