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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:39 am 
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I came across this on woodnet forum.
This is very interesting.
The video is about the effects of cap iron / chipbreaker on hand plane
It's in Japanese but there is a subtitle.

Enjoy the video!
http://giantcypress.net/post/23159548132/this-is-the-full-version-of-the-video-created-by?8de140f8

Chris Schwarz (used to be popular woodworking magine chief editor) confirm this with his own experiment.
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/reconsidering-chipbreakers-as-not-totally-evil?et_mid=562992&rid=232918414

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:35 am 
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Excellent video. Never seen such closeup video of what happens at the edge of a blade. Also great to see what happens when you go either side of "just right" on the chipbreaker distance from the edge.

Good timing on posting this too. I'm working on a wood plane for jointing plates, and one of my most hated things about that task is when the grain is curved so you either start against the grain and finish with the grain, or start with the grain and finish against it. Perhaps knowing exactly how the chipbreaker works, I can get it adjusted properly to cut smoothly either way.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:19 pm 
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それが超クールでしたが、私はポーランド語に行くと私のチップブレーカを調整する必要があると考えています!私は実際に長い時間前に、これらの同じ線に沿って何かを読んでいたが、このビデオは実際にここで何が起こっているか示すの優れた仕事をしていません。

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:57 pm 
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Andy Birko wrote:
それが超クールでしたが、私はポーランド語に行くと私のチップブレーカを調整する必要があると考えています!私は実際に長い時間前に、これらの同じ線に沿って何かを読んでいたが、このビデオは実際にここで何が起こっているか示すの優れた仕事をしていません。



よくアンディ、ここで何が起きているのですか?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:38 pm 
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Nothing new in people advocating that the chip breaker should be set very close to the cutting edge. Somewhere I recall Romanillos stating that he sets the chip breaker very close to the cutting edge. That was probably in an interview that dates back to the mid/late '70's. I'm sure there were folk saying the same thing long before that.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:52 pm 
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One thing I noted on another site is notice how similar a scraper is to a plane iron with a tight chip breaker.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:27 pm 
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The experiment is not relevant for several reasons. One of the biggest reasons is they took the mouth out of the equation. That is like testing a cars 0 to 60 with out tires.
Another thing the chip breaker angle that they used was much steeper than anything you will see on a typical plane. By putting such a steep angle so close to the edge of the blade it was acting like a steeper angled blade. In that case why not just use a steeper angled blade.
Not include the mouth of the plane makes the whole thing a waste of time IMO. (Cool photos though) The mouth is much more important than the chip breaker. With a proper mouth opening a chip breaker is redundant. All this tells you is what happens to a naked blade, not what happens in a plane. The importance of the mouth is easily demonstrated, you don't need special equipment to do it.
I have said it before and will say it again, the chip breaker is not necessary and on plane with a thick iron. Maybe it helps on a flimsy thin iron but not to break a chip. In that case it helps to maybe stiffen and add mass to the whole assembly.
I have been making planes, using planes and teaching plane making for almost 30 years now and I don't use chip breakers anymore and have not seen one little bit of difference in performance.
L.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:42 pm 
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Bryan Bear wrote:
よくアンディ、ここで何が起きているのですか?


どうやらGoogle翻訳は対称的ではありません。

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:56 pm 
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I might add that they could have got dramatic results from increasing their blade angle from 40° to something more like 48°
L.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:40 pm 
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This is not new info for some, but.. the lower the cutting angle, the more imp't the 'chipbreaker'.
A higher cutting angle, by itself, can solve a lot of planing problems, but also introduce some new ones: harder to move, quicker to dull.. Sole conditioning and
blade bedding are imo more important, other things equal.

My favorite plane is a 54mm kanna set at 37 degrees, no 'chipbreaker'. If kept sharp and
well-conditioned, it's good up to EIR. Have to pay attention though; I like that.

Planing with a 'chipbreaker' is like sex with a condom: safe, sometimes necessary, but not satisfying.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:15 pm 
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Andy Birko wrote:

どうやらGoogle翻訳は対称的ではありません。


大声で笑う

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:56 am 
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Hi Link,

Though this knowledge is nothing new but it does demonstrate how near the chipbreaker (or cap iron) has to be near the cutting edge of the blade.
I have to disagree this experiment is not relevant, it is designed to isolate what the cap iron is doing which is why the mouth is left out of the equation.
By precisely knowing what what effect of
1) how near the cap iron is to the cutting edge of the blade,
2) the angle of the cap iron,
we can know how make use of those variables in a real plane.
Of course if the experiment would to include an additional section on the effect of mouth on the whole assembly it would be more complete.

I believe 40 degree was chosen because it's the common angle of the Japanese kanna (plane).

Sen

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:30 am 
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The performance enhancements are mostly relevant to planing on difficult woods, like smoothing figured maple, for example.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:31 pm 
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Can you adjust the chip breaker angle on the average hand plane?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:39 pm 
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A half-a-thou is getting into the territory; good. Less edge deflection and some feel
of the wood.

Some worthwhile sources: Seth Janofsky's article in 'Woodwork' issue 55, anything by
Robert Meadow in FWW or his self published things, available at daikudojo.org.

For a glimpse of what's possible, though_maybe not_necessary, see the Youtube
videos by 'Kokomade7' (also a guitarmaker and fine player).


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:00 am 
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Hupaand wrote:
Can you adjust the chip breaker angle on the average hand plane?


You can regrind/hone the bevel to a shallower angle, using a honing guide as you would on the plane iron...

Presumably, assuming the use of a cambered blade, you'd have to camber the chipbreaker too in order that it corresponds with the blade camber.

There's a good article by David Charlesworth on dealing with the chipbreaker (and fettling planes in general) in Fine Woodworking - 'Hand Plane Tune-up'.

By the way, I know that DC is currently experimenting with setting the chipbreaker close and taking thick (4 thou) shavings in difficult woods without tearout; I think that's the area where this research might have some use, rather than for final smoothing (for those people that have to/want to thickness by hand)...


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:14 am 
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Todd Stock wrote:
Having used both bevel up and bevel down planes for decades, I have to go with Link on this one...sharpness, pitch angle, and plane setup (mouth geometry, coplanar toe, mouth, and heel, etc.) are what determine performance, with the chip breaker being almost irrelevant in terms of practical use.

Note...I said almost irrelevant.

As the chip gets thicker and the cube rule for beam stiffness dominates, chip breakers begin to function as claimed...for my normal .0005-.0007 shaving thickness, there is no practical difference between my LN 62 and my LN 4, assuming I have adjusted mouth opening, etc. and blades are of similar sharpness. As I get to chip thicknesses of .003-.005, I begin to see some differences in behavior WHEN I OPEN THE MOUTH to accommodate the thicker, coarser chip. Keep in mind that the .003 chip is over 200 times stiffer than the .0005 chip, so not an unexpected result that for very thick chips, a closely set CB might aid in suppressing the uncontrolled propagation of the cut ahead of the edge.

So...yup...absolutely believe that chip breakers work as advertised to 'fool the wood' into thinking the plane pitch angle is higher...but only when the chip is far thicker than the type of work intended (final smoothing/jointing, etc.) would ever warrant. Take a reasonable thickness - for me, that is always going to be less than .001 for finish work - and I doubt you'll ever see any differences between equally sharp bevel up or bevel down blades working at the same pitch angle. Performance always seems to come back to sharp edges, a light cut, and a well set-up tool.

And yes...I get the same performance in curly maple with either style of plane...

Edit: I note that 252 of you have tried to view the attached shot...and after looking for the original higher res version and not finding it handy, I'll note that the shaving is unitary and about .0005, the surface of the stock is polished and shows nothing in the way of surface texture from micro-tearout, etc., and the effect on thickness of the chip from the cambered edge is not noticeable in the shot. The plane is a 'first 100' LN 4 with retrofitted York pitch frog, A2 blade, and heavy chip breaker (the originals were common, O1, and thin steel, respectively). The curly maple was a fairly nasty piece of work that I would bring to local OldTool gatherings as a test article, along with some curly ebony, some QS sycamore, and a few other sticks of stuff that did not like to behave.



Well, that's what the video says. At 7:42 the guy says exactly that, when the depth of cut is shallow enough, the chipbreaker is unnecesary. Reiterated at 15:53.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:02 am 
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Link Van Cleave wrote:
The experiment is not relevant for several reasons. One of the biggest reasons is they took the mouth out of the equation. That is like testing a cars 0 to 60 with out tires.
Another thing the chip breaker angle that they used was much steeper than anything you will see on a typical plane. By putting such a steep angle so close to the edge of the blade it was acting like a steeper angled blade. In that case why not just use a steeper angled blade.
Not include the mouth of the plane makes the whole thing a waste of time IMO. (Cool photos though) The mouth is much more important than the chip breaker. With a proper mouth opening a chip breaker is redundant. All this tells you is what happens to a naked blade, not what happens in a plane. The importance of the mouth is easily demonstrated, you don't need special equipment to do it.
I have said it before and will say it again, the chip breaker is not necessary and on plane with a thick iron. Maybe it helps on a flimsy thin iron but not to break a chip. In that case it helps to maybe stiffen and add mass to the whole assembly.
I have been making planes, using planes and teaching plane making for almost 30 years now and I don't use chip breakers anymore and have not seen one little bit of difference in performance.
L.


Well, how thick is your usual cut? If anything, this video demonstrates that the body (and mouth) of the planer is irrelevant except for holding the blade to the correct depth and angle relevant to the work piece. Angle and depth are what counts towards the quality of the cut (assuming the blade is correctly sharpened, of course.)

How would you demonstrate the importance of the mouth?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:22 am 
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I'm sure everyone realizes that not every hand plane out there has an adjustable mouth. Wooden planes in particular, which includes contemporary Japanese planes, don't have an adjustable mouth. The video is perfectly valid. It show the effect of the chip breaker when you have a wide open mouth. Simple as that.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:05 pm 
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Filippo Morelli wrote:
That's a good point, John. This video shows how a plane iron and chipbreaker work with the mouth suitably out of the design equation. That implies, of course, that the fixed mouth is designed to perform no function whatsoever on a fixed mouth plane, correct?

Filippo


That, and have you ever tried adjusting the chip breaker on a Japanese plane? It would be quite the accomplishment to adjust it so precisely.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:27 pm 
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John Coloccia wrote:
I'm sure everyone realizes that not every hand plane out there has an adjustable mouth. Wooden planes in particular, which includes contemporary Japanese planes, don't have an adjustable mouth. The video is perfectly valid. It show the effect of the chip breaker when you have a wide open mouth. Simple as that.


You don't need a adjustable mouth, just a tightly set one. If your mouth is wide, as Todd said, a simple fix will tighten it. All I see in the video is what happens when you adjust a chip breaker (a Japanese style one ) to somewhat mimic a steep angle plane iron.
Simple as that.
I will amend what I said about the video being invalid and change it to being pretty useless in practical terms. What is one going to do with what was demonstrated in the video ? Take a western plane, and grind some weird angle on ones chip breaker or make a different one. Is anyone going to modify their chip breaker now ? If they are they are barking up the wrong tree. IMO a better use of one's energy would be towards other areas of the plane and blade.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:41 pm 
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To no one in particular but my 2 cents, I would spend more time sharpening, tuning, and paying close attention to the mouth opening than to any chip breaker tweaks, unless your plane has one and of course it should be adjusted and set correctly so the shavings don't get trapped under it. I would call it a chip deflector not a chip breaker. While I enjoyed the video I think it seems to be sending folks down the wrong road.
L.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:41 pm 
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re: regrinding the chip breaker
The conclusion was that a higher angle on the chip breaker allows you to move it further away, making it easier to setup, not that you have to regrind the chipbreaker.

re: everything else
We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't know how you're going to close down the mouth when you're trying to take larger shavings AND get no tear out, for example. I'm almost thinking that you'd decide to live with the tearout, just on principle, rather than try to mitigate it. The sharpest blade in the world won't make the wood fibers do what they don't want to do.

This is a great piece of knowledge, and great trick to have up your sleeve. You're seriously advocating permanently modifying a plane, rendering it useless for anything but smoothing tasks, when simply resetting the chipbreaker position temporarily can potentially get the job done? For the life of me I can't figure out why this is getting under your skin so much that you're throwing out all reason.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:30 pm 
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John Coloccia wrote:
re: regrinding the chip breaker
The conclusion was that a higher angle on the chip breaker allows you to move it further away, making it easier to setup, not that you have to regrind the chipbreaker.

re: everything else
We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't know how you're going to close down the mouth when you're trying to take larger shavings AND get no tear out, for example. I'm almost thinking that you'd decide to live with the tearout, just on principle, rather than try to mitigate it. The sharpest blade in the world won't make the wood fibers do what they don't want to do.

This is a great piece of knowledge, and great trick to have up your sleeve. You're seriously advocating permanently modifying a plane, rendering it useless for anything but smoothing tasks, when simply resetting the chipbreaker position temporarily can potentially get the job done? For the life of me I can't figure out why this is getting under your skin so much that you're throwing out all reason.


Yeah right. Go for it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:47 pm 
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Just a question for those more experienced woodworker out there, if the chipbreaker is so unimportant, why do they include it in the first place.
Shouldn't they just leave it out, since it will be likely be cheaper to make (less parts)
Even modern plane maker like LN still include the chipbreaker in their bench planes.

As a woodworking newbie, any new sort of info is good for me.
Of course, I will have to spend sometime digesting what the new info (about chipbreaker) does for me and experiment with the different set-up to get the best result.
I think it's better to know what each part of the plane does (including the mouth, chipbreaker, sharpness of iron etc), and use that to fine tune the set-up to get the desired results.

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