Official Luthiers Forum!

I have been brainstorming ideas of woods to use for a guitar built from 100% domestic (United States) wood. It seems easily doable with all the great woods we have in the US such as the walnuts, cherry, oak, osage orange, red spruce, etc. but I am trying to find the most suitable wood for fretboards that compare to ebony and rosewood. Three species come to mind: persimmon, honey mesquite, and Texas ebony.

Here are my observations on these three woods:

Persimmon - A true ebony, heavy and hard, sometimes called white ebony. Although not commonly found in lumber it is fairly easy to obtain from specialty wood suppliers. It grows large enough to get good quartered fretboard wood. Downsides: It's white so it would get dirty easily. According to The Wood Database it's difficult to plane and has a "very high shrinkage rate, and may experience significant movement in service".

Texas ebony - A smaller Southwestern desert tree that grows slowly up to 30' tall with twisting branches. Very hard and dense, can produce a very dark brown color like rosewood. Extremely difficult to obtain large enough good quality fretboard wood. I have searched extensively on the web and have not been able to find a single board long enough and straight enough for fretboards. I can't find much information on it's workability and stability.

Honey mesquite - Another Southwest desert tree that grows 20-30' tall on average. Exhibits a deep brownish honey color, hence the name. Uncommon in large good quality fretboard size boards, but not as hard to find as Texas ebony. Exceptional stability and "exhibits very little movement or expansion/contraction due to environmental changes in humidity" according to The Wood Database. Easy to work.

Based on my observations it seems out of these three species that honey mesquite is the best candidate for use as a fretboard wood. I would love to hear your opinions about these and any other domestic woods you think might work for fretboards. Let's see some pics too.

I haven't worked any of these woods yet but I was able to find good quality quartered boards in honey mesquite and persimmon but no luck with finding a Texas ebony board big enough for a guitar fretboard (although I picked up a nice piece big enough for a uke). Here's a pic of the mesquite and persimmon boards I picked up.

You mentioned Osage orange but left it off your list of FB wood. I haven't used it for a fretboard yet but it seems well suited though the color may not be ideal. . .

_________________
Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

Black locust a little softer an difficult to plane vy pink/colour.Desert ironwood vy hard hvy splintery dk brn/whitish color n.mexico and sw desert areas

Black Locust makes a nice fretboard so I hear.


EDIT: ernie beat me to it... I wonder how hickory would do? Maybe Dogwood?

I've been on a similar search. I've got some Texas Ebony and I think it would make a great fretboard except my piece is only about 12" long. I've considered Persimmon and Osage Orange but would prefer a wood that is naturally darker. I also like Mesquite but so far I've been unable to find a suitable source.

I've used Eastern Walnut in the past for a dulcimer fretboard and it worked ok but I'm not sure it would last very long. To that end I've decided to try some Bastogne Walnut; it's a hybrid and supposed to be the hardest of the walnuts. I've got a board that should yield 6 to 8 fingerboards and it is promising. Unfortunately I haven't had time to do anything with it since I'm redoing shelves and changing machinery in the shop. When I have more info I'll let everyone know.

On a side note - it seems there are enough East Tennessee folks posting on here that we should consider a get-together. No idea where we could meet but ...

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Yew will make a smashing fretboard and is very durable - there are plenty of trees up in WA OR - in order to glue it you have to scrub the gluing surface with acetone to remove surface oils however - but well worth it and more durable than rosewood.... possibly as good as ebony for wear... depending on the age of the tree as I hear density increases with age...available in sizes large enough to make a back & sides out of...
Ocean spray is The Most dense hardwood shrub/tree in North America I hear - rare in useable sizes however... prolly big enough for a fb though..
Then there is Laburnum - attractive and durable - available also from what I understand - golden greenish faded to rich browninsh... some ppl react to the dust however.
What about Holly? - beautiful and dyes well if white isnt your thing ... sizes large enough to use for b&s and fb's ...
Dogwood - protected in BC but I dunno about the States - hard and beautiful! Large enough for B&S or FB
Mabye some of these options might be worthwhile looking into...
Cheers
Charlie

I used persimmon on one guitar, a small jumbo. It was easy to work with and I think it came out quite nicely. I stained it with some of Alan's tea made from black walnut hulls but probably should have done a little more. I got impatient and wanted to get it fretted and strung up. I'll definitely use it again if I can find some. I know Tom Thiel at Northwind has some so I'll probably pick up a few boards from him sometime. I've never noticed any movement in it and it's been strung up 21 months. I didn't find it to be difficult to plane at all. I've used it for bridge plates a few times (including this guitar) and while it's very hard, I found it planes fairly nicely. Of course, that might have been because Alan keeps his planes so darned sharp! Here's a couple of pics.

Matt

I've never thought of black locust or osage orange for use as a fretboard. Excellent candidates, but still a bit light in color.

Steve - I believe the mesquite board I have will make at least 6+ fretboards and matching bridge blanks. If you want a fretboard let me know and I can start milling it up when I get time. I think a get together would be great! Hmm..where to meet..

Gil, Jeffries Hardwoods on Chapman Highway usually has Texas Ebony, I snagged a very nice piece, a couple of months ago. East Tennessee is inundated with Persimmon. I have more than I can ever use that I cut off my place. Someone was telling me about dyeing it with brew of vinegar/steel wool, (supposedly its very black) I have noticed that Persimmon cut dead on quarter shrinks significantly less than slab sawn.

East Tennessee builders get together: Lets do it.

Jeffries is where I got the short piece of Texas Ebony I have now. I've been looking for a bigger piece when I go over there but not luck. You must have got the big piece he had

Just kidding of course = a get together would be great. I'll start another thread and see if we can get some interest.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Using black locust on a current build, but customer agrees with some of the comments regarding the light color. We will be dying it darker.

Ken

_________________
http://www.casperguitar.com

That would be cool. I could cut up the Bastogne walnut and we could do a trade if you like.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

They do get some in on occasion. I bought a piece for $25 there that yielded three pretty nice fingerboards.



I took one of these to Wayne Henderson on Saturday.

The best TE I have gotten came from an Ebay seller who cuts hurricane damaged trees. That was about four years ago. After buying one marginal piece on Ebay, I contacted him and asked if he had any larger clean boards. The piece I got was about 5 feet long and 3" thick. I resawed it into 1" thick boards to dry. These will yield some nice QS straight-grained guitar fingerboards or peghead veneers.
Here is one board from that piece. It is 44" long, and at the narrowest, the heartwood is 4" wide.





Here is a nice piece of marbled persimmon I found in a pallet board in the mid-1970's.



In 30+ years of looking, I have not found another piece like it. I do believe that it can be cultivated by partially girdling the trunk and allowing the tree to stand for a few years. That will allow that part of the tree to die, promoting the production of dark heartwood.

Another possibility is not native, but widely planted in South Florida. This is a species of Indian rosewood (D. sissoo) that has also been cut from hurricane-damaged trees.

_________________
John

John, wow those are some nice boards! Let me know if you want to sell one of those 1" slices of Texas Ebony.

Steve - Don't think I would be interested in the bastogne for fretboards but would like some neck billets from it if it's big enough. If not I can just charge you a small fee or we can trade something else.

Charlie - I thought yew was quite toxic, did you have issues with it?

Matt, the stained persimmon fretboard looks really nice.

I recently got a back and side set of osage orange that I'm planning on an 0 or size 5 build this summer...
Are North Alabama builders going to be invited to the East Tennessee get-to-gather??

Rock maple works well, if you don't mind the look. I like it myself - looks like ivory or something. If you don't like the the Fender lacquered over approach, ultra thin CA will seal the surface and help keep it clean, without giving it a gloss.

I've got some dogwood sapwood that would seem to be decent, if it was bigger. I'm told the heartwood is dark: the sap wood is white. Dogwood is supposed to be the most abrasion resistant wood around: they used it for weaver's shuttles.

For the 'Cherry Seven' project we used hop hornbeam. It, too, is white, and hard; maybe a little tighter grained than persimmon. It dyed up well with the walnut hull tea, and the wood we got was quite figured, so it looked good.

Apple can be pretty hard wood.

A student gave me some 'soft shell almond' wood, retrieved from a fire wood pile in the groves in California. It suffers a _lot_ of drying degrade: seems to have a high tangential shrinkage rate, but is reasonably stable when quartered. I used some for a fingerboard once, and it worked well. It's very hard, dense, and close grained, resembling cherry but browner. As a cultivar it should be reasonably available if only you could get them to cut it right. 'Hard shell almond' has open grained and softer wood.

There seem to be lots of usable woods around for fingerboards, but none that are really black. We've been spoiled.

I personally have never had issues working with yew nor have I heard of any of my boatbuilding friends ever having a reaction to its dust either - we are lousy with it, its a protected tree but Ive never had a problem finding it on the beach or in more frequently in clearcut slash piles.. you can find deep reds or bordered with clearish cream sapwood - whatever suits you more.
In fact Ive heard wayyyy more ppl complain of reactions to cedar, and recently I have had one myself albeit not a major one - it means that my days of using cedar are numbered however, sadly - what a great wood! just major toxic..
Cheers
charliewood

I just recieved a locust tree in a trade for some chickens that i plan on milling as soon as this 90+ degree weather goes a way. This stuff is rock hard for sure. It's a Michigan black locust tree.

Why can't you mill chickens when it is above 90?

_________________
Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

[quote="Bryan Bear"]Why can't you mill chickens when it is above 90You don't mill chickens, you pluck um

Here is the Texas Ebony from Jeffries its just under 3/4 and 32 inches long. I can get two fingerboards and some bridges out of this piece.
Also have a pile of Black Locust, I scored a truckload early this year. This is just a smidgen. I used some for bridge plates, and will be using for back and sides, never really thought about using for fingerboards.

I have used persimmon in other woodworking. I am from Illinois and all I have seen is gray and tan with darker streaks. I have some for bowls that has spalting lines and would make an interesting if busy looking fretboard. It is hard and stable if dried properly. Osage Orange is in the same vein in that it splits easily if not dried correctly. Black Locust would be another good choice in the mid-west.

I actually got a clean board of Texas Ebony from Jeffries that is big enough for a dread. I agree that we should have an East TN get-together. Maybe a luthiers club?

I think dogwood would make an interesting fingerboard.

[quote="Goodin]Matt, the stained persimmon fretboard looks really nice.[/quote]

Thanks. I'm currently working on a 12 string that will have a maple fingerboard stained with the walnut hull tea, as well. Alan didn't mention maple in his post, but he told me the walnut hull tea works really well on it.

Matt