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One of the difficulty of being in Taiwan is often any building I move to have crap wirings, for example NO grounds, oversized breaker and undersized wire, and generally sloppy wirings such as electrical tape used to join wires together. So one of these days I want to totally re-wire my shop once I get enough money... should I try?

What I want to do is bypass the original breaker box altogether, because its a mess... I will have to get some metal conduits and bolt them to the wall, with proper metal switch boxes that aren't rusted, run 110 outlets just next to my workbench so I can plug in power tools without having to pull out extension cords, and the other room I want to hard wire my drill press and bandsaw with a safety switch (one of those big box things with a switch that allows you to padlock it in the off position), and I also need to wire a 220v line to my workbench as well as to the bandsaw as eventually I will get a bandsaw that uses a 220v motor.

I will also ground the thing properly, but how do I obtain a grounding source?

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

From the sound of it Probably . The problem with that question on here and why you wont get alot of response is because we all live under diffrent codes and rules . You gonna have to look into things from the perspective of where you live and make informed decisions based on your local rules .

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Domestic grounding here in UK is usually onto metal (copper) water supply piping.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I don't know what you are allowed to do yourself under your building codes, or what your insurance says about these things. Over here, you can't do much unless you are a licenced electrician, or you are in big trouble IF things go wrong (you'd jeopardize your insurance in case of fire etc). Bypassing the original breaker box (I assume you intend to install another, better one?) would be a BIG no-no, too. For one thing, most places over here, that is where the meter is, so unless that is places somewhere else in your building, you'd get in trouble with the electrical company (and the landlord?).

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

If you have spaces for more breakers in your main panel,
it's do-able.
Or, you can get piggy back breakers.
Do ya know much about wiring?
If you don't,
get an electrician to advise you.

Yea, the problem is there are no such thing as a certified electrician in Taiwan, the attitude seems to be "whatever".

Chances are any advise I would get is however its done and trust me, it's NOT the right way.

As for electrical codes, I don't know because there doesn't seem to be any, because just about all the wirings in Taiwan are the same (crap). I do know whatever they have here, if Taiwan uses the same electrical codes as they do in the US, it is definitely not up to code. The reason I say I wanted to make a new breaker box is because the original breaker box is too small, and it's a mess inside. I know enough to know that whatever they got here is a recipe for disaster.

If I hire an electrician (in Taiwan electrical and plumbing is combined into ONE trade), he will not do a better job than I do. Furthermore I don't have any copper pipe to ground to because they use either steel or PVC pipes.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

This may give you some ideas http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_make_a_electrical_earth_pit

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

You can drive a 6 foot long grounding rod into the ground,
then go to your steel pipes, if that's what they are,
then to your panel.
Take a picture of the panel if you want.
With it open, so we can see the wiring.
Electricity is fun,
but be careful!

Don't say I didn't warn you...

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Now that is a scary panel and wiring, it looks to me like extension cord wire used right into the panel for most of the circuits. I would say grounding is just one of your many problems.

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Fred Tellier
http://www.fetellierguitars.com
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/FE-Tellier-Guitars/163451547003866

Thats why I said I wanted to rewire the shop at some point...

What are the legal spec for wirings anyways? I think just about every electrician in Taiwan would do their wirings like this.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Tai Fu: I'll start by stating I am NOT an electrician, so really not qualified to comment, but I have lived and worked on every continent except Antarctica and I can assure you that yours is far from the scariest electrical installation I've seen -- that would be a toss up between Gansu China and rural Tunisia).

While the panel is small, it has a 100 amp entrance (2, 50 amp breakers as main switch) and is not overloaded. To upgrade it would probably require a new meter as well. In Taiwan I understand your normal residential wiring is 110 volts. The heavy cable from the meter has a black and red conductors feeding the main switch, and giving 2 live sides with 220 between them. I can't see it, but I expect there is also a third conductor feeding the neutral bus at the lower right. This bus is also your panel ground -- we would hope that the neutral conductor coming to the meter is properly connected to a ground outside. The first two 20 amp breakers are ganged to feed a 220-volt circuit (your oven, perhaps? Thers's a heavy cable connected to it). The remaining 20 amp breakers feed individual 110 volt circuits. All in all, what I would expect to see and nothing looks "like crap" (heck it IS in a panel with proper breakers, and nothing bypasses the meter!)

Now, the circuits feeding from the panel are another story. As Fred pointed out, the cable runs look like extension cord and certainly not adequate for safely handling 20 amps. I expect these circuits were run by a homeowner or handy man, and not by the electrician who installed the panel. Proper cable is expensive, especially for 110 volts that requires much larger gauge copper than 220, but just as many conductors. Provided you're willing to buy the right stuff, complete with third ground conductor, running the cable for regular circuits is not difficult and you can ask an electrician to make the connection at the panel. He/she will connect the grounds for these circuits to the neutral bus.

I think your next step is to consult with a licensed electrician to confirm:
1. That your entrance has been grounded, in which case your neutral bus will be properly grounded.
2. What is the proper spec cable to run your circuits?
3. Will he/she come back to check your work and make the final connections to the panel?

You still have a 6th breaker slot available bring a total of 120 amps fed by a 100 amp entrance, which sound excessive, but is likely within code (120 x 80% < 100). Whether or not this is adequate for your shop depends on what you're hoping to connect.

Good luck with it. Let us know if I've confused the heck out of you ( or given Taiwanese electricians more credit than they're due).

Cheers, Tim

Tai--I'm also not an electrician. I know a good deal less than Tim does, but I'll agree with him that I've seen many breaker boxes (or fuse boxes) that were a good deal scarier than yours. If it's any comfort, I see them often here in rural California.

Like you, I do all my own wiring because, like you, I can't afford a real electrician. Do be careful. Don't work on anything with the power on. Don't work on anything with the power on. Don't work on anything with the power on. Did I mention not to work on anything with the power on?

Steel pipe would be an adequate ground (remember, I'm not an electrician), but these days, you have no way of knowing where, or when, the pipe may be interrupted with a length of plastic pipe. This is just as true for copper pipe. If It's your building, and you know the plumbing, then maybe. Otherwise, you need to connect your ground wires to a grounding rod, driven deep in the earth. (I'm just saying all this to provoke an electrician into weighing in to straighten me out.)

I don't worry much about insurance. Given the choice between doing something to reduce the chance that my shop burns down, and postponing improvements because they might interfere with an insurance claim, I opt for whatever upgrades I can afford. These always turn out to be things that I can do myself.

Being an ignorant do-it-yourselfer, I've found this little book very useful: http://www.amazon.com/Wiring-Simplified-Based-National-Electrical/dp/0971977976
Actually, this is a much more recent edition than I have. Used, older editions go for about a dollar. You'll find the writing very clear, and the guidelines very practical. Good luck, and be careful.

Hey Tai,
it looks good coming into the breakers, but going out looks funky.
A 20 amp breaker should have 12 gauge wire going from it,
(the bottom wires).
Looks like you've got smaller gauge wire there in a few spots.
This is how it goes,
15 amp breaker, 14 gauge wire,
20 amp breaker, 12 gauge wire,
30 amp breaker, 10 gauge wire,
40 amp breaker, 8 gauge wire.
A breaker is to protect the wire leaving the breaker.
When too many amps run through the breaker,
it kicks the breaker.
Smaller gauge wires could be overloaded,
when attached to a higher amp rated breaker.
So, if you run your saw,
which is drawing say, 16 amps,
and with a 20 amp breaker,
with 18 gauge wire,
the wire will get hot, and melt,
and the breaker will just stay on, until the neut and hot are making contact with each other.
So, just verify the wires going out to your tools are the right size.

I don't have any saw that draws 16 amps (for now), and when I do get something that will draw that current it will most likely go on a 220 line which as it appears, is correctly sized. Gauges aren't used in Taiwan so how do I convert from gauges to wire size in mm?

My bandsaw draws about 6 or 7 amp max, but that's because its a crappy bandsaw...

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Just verify your bandsaw isn't plugged into a smaller wire size than it should be.
Another way to look at it is,
20 amps x 120 volts = 2400 watts.
2400 watts is the max that the breaker can take.
If you work on your wiring,
turn off the 2- 50 amp breakers first,
but be careful because there still is power on the top screws on those breakers!

http://www.technick.net/public/code/cp_ ... _to_metric

Tai Fu:
I'm tempted to reiterate my recommendation that you consult with someone on the Taiwanese code requirements for cabling, before you go ahead with any rewiring in your shop. Details you get on this forum, even if they are correct, will be incomplete and not relate to your country's requirements or the materials available in the local market place. As was mentioned, the North American norm for a 120V, 20A run is 12 AWG -- but that only applies to Copper wire up to a code-specified maximum length. I seem to recall a lot of aluminum wiring still in use in China, and that requires a larger conductor, although it might still be much cheaper than copper. Perhaps that is your cheapest option, so best to know what applies.

A vendor at a local hardware store might have the cable you need, but probably doesn't know or understand detailed requirements or codes. (The same holds true for most staff at North American home improvement centres.) Find yourself a certified electrician or head down to your building permit office and ask them to help clarify the code requirements -- they DO exist. Those requirements will relate to what is available in your market and you won't be struggling trying to convert recommendations from elsewhere on the planet to what you can buy in Taiwan. You can find a lot of basic wiring information in books or online, even from outside your region, and you will be in a better position to ask the right questions.

When I was living in Canada and the US, I was in areas where a homeowner could legally install wiring in their own home, even if there were local inspection requirements. So, I've done quite a bit of residential and workshop wiring. This is not permitted here in New Zealand, where virtually any "hard" wiring work must, by law, be done by a certified "sparky". My solution has been to establish a relationship with an electrician who I pay to inspect my work and to make the final connections personally to the breaker panel. He's happy, I save some labour cost, and I have peace of mind that the local codes have been met and my insurance is not compromised. After he's finished, we have a beer together and trade information on the code differences between Canada, the US and NZ -- there are many!

Most folks can do basic wiring, but it can be very dangerous if you haven't learned what you're doing. Be careful and find someone local who is knowledgable to help.

Tim

Like I said, its going to take time to find a certified electrician in Taiwan because most of them are little more knowledgable than an average handyman. Only thing I can try is consulting the electric company. Electrical codes in Taiwan are not enforced and I have heard they are often bribed. I have asked and was told a certified electrician does not exist in Taiwan.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

In the Pennsylvania the required grounding source is usually an 8 foot copper rod that is hammered into the earth. Not his will take care of the average house or small shop. I'm not sure if that is code throughout the country. In your country it might be something totally different. You need to look into what or if there is local codes about this type of thing.

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Another day, another dollar.

I just got back from Mexico. That box looks pretty good.

An update:

If you notice in the first picture I posted of the box, there is a green wire that goes into the meter and that wire (as I have just now noticed) comes from the ground through a conduit. So I am assuming that this is a grounding wire. I am not sure if it stops at the meter or if it shunts with the neutral wire because only 3 wires come out of the meter, 2 live and a neutral.

I have done a little rewiring of the shop in order to accommodate an air conditioning unit and found a disturbing fact in the AC circuit, the person only connected the 2 110v lives to form a 220 but for some reason did not connect the ground/neutral to anything. I can only guess what is the person's reasoning for that...

Other than that aside from the extension cord wires, every other wire is of proper size. I've just removed all the extension cord wires from the vicinity of the breaker panel because most of them leads to non-functional devices and they are an eyesore.

The bathroom (which is right across the breaker panel) has no electrical outlet, I will make one but I must install a GFCI outlet and connect them with a large enough wire to accommodate 20 amps... this is to be consistent with the National Electrical Code. No one seems to use GFCI in bathrooms or kitchens in Taiwan but it seems the NEC requires them. I can't sink wires into the wall so I will probably have to use PVC conduits...

I've managed to find GFCI outlets in Taiwan and let me tell you.. I found the reason why no one uses them in Taiwan, because they cost 4 times as much as a non GFCI protected outlet. 3 conductor wires are like hen's tooth in Taiwan... only ones I can find are very heavy wires intended for air conditioning units.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Is Taiwan as bad as you say? You're often complaining about your imprisonment on this island.
There aren't like 20-25 million people in Taiwan? And there's no electrician in there? It can't be THAT bad and isolated?

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Francis Richer, Montréal
Les Guitares F&M Guitars

First of all, I think Fred is an electrician so pay close attention to what he says.

Secondly, since he's an electrician, I doubt he wants to stick his neck out & give advice to a do-it-yourselfer.

My brother lives in Shang Hai (the world's largest city?) & my in laws are from Korea. If Taiwan is anything like either, trying to find an honest, compitent contractor or get a straight answer on anything if you're not spending thousands of dollars is not easy.

Are you having actual problems or are you just concerned? If you change something, you'll put yourself in danger of being blamed for a future problem which may not be entirely your fault.

In answer to your question, don't do it unless you're certain that it won't come back to bite you.

My $0.02.

Kevin Looker

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I'm not a luthier.
I'm just a guy who builds guitars in his basement.
It's better than playing golf.

My 2 cents......

The green wire running into the meter panel is surely an earth ground. It most likely connects to the metal box and to the neutral wire in the meter box. It would be best if the feed from the meter box to the breaker panel had a green wire also, again connecting to the neutral bus to the metal part of the box. I don't see one but would not be to concerned about it as long as the neutral bus is conneceted to the box in the breaker panel, as it appears to be.

My first concern is the wires doubled up under the 20 amp breakers. That is never a good idea but as long as all the wires connected to the 20 amp breakers are 12 gauge (2.06mm) or bigger then you may have a breaker or panel overload but not a wire overload.

If they follow the NEC you will have two options.

1. Install a new 100A breaker panel with a 50amp 240v breaker that feeds the old panel. Have enough empty slots in the new panel to wire the new 120V and 240V circuits you need. Remember to run 4 wires between the panels (3-#6 for two phases and neutral, and 1- #12 green ground to tie the panels together)
or
2. Replace the existing 50amp panel with a new 100amp and move the old circuits to it as well as the new ones. If you buy a panel that you can transfer the existing breakers to then this may be the least expense.

You also will need to do the following:

Have the a power company representative come out and tell him what you want to do. Ask him if they will install the wire from the existing meter panel to the new breaker panel. He may say the existing meter panel and service entrance cables are to small. Ask him if he will replace them. (Those may be expense items.)

Good luck

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust