Official Luthiers Forum!

I was talking to a guy who runs a music store, and he says I need to offer lower prices for people offering lower value instruments (like Epiphones, Cort, etc.) because if I quoted my usual rate they would just decide that its not worth it to fix it and either throw it away, or take it to someone who does offer a lower fee structure for low valued instrument.

I said that it would not be right to do that because in my mind I can't offer a lower price to repair a low value instrument and do half of good as a job, since I just couldn't live with handing someone a guitar that isn't repaired well. He said if I continued doing that I wouldn't get enough business because most people have low valued instrument. He also said some of the other repair people in Taipei have different fee structures for low valued instruments, so they get a lot of business that way.

Maybe Taiwanese people have a "throw stuff away and buy new ones" mentality but I find most Westerners I meet don't mind taking low value instruments in for repairs and paying the normal price for a good repair. What would you do if the market is full of people who just throw things away?

I just convinced someone to let me fix an inexpensive Epiphone. He asked if it was worth it, and I said an Epiphone isn't exactly as cheap as an off brand, and that if you're already used to the way this instrument feels, its worth it to fix it.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I'm not in the guitar repair business, but I am in business in a service industry. I've been in business long enough to know that if you discount your fees (especially for a service), you cheapen the perceived quality of the work, even if the quality is the same. In effect, you hurt your business and your reputation. Furthermore, you may find (as I do) that people who are looking for a "cheap fix" will often be the ones to complain the most and the loudest about anything and everything ... "It took too long" ... "I can see a small mark here" ... "Why did I get charged for this".

A second concern would be that if someone finds out you are charging less to do the work on a cheaper instrument, they are going to want the cheaper rate on their more expensive instrument. After all, a neck reset is a neck reset, right?

I disagree with your store owner. The value of your time doesn't change based on the quality of the instrument, nor does the cost of replacement parts (most likely). Unless you are willing to compromise your quality on cheaper instrument and perform quick, sloppy work, it doesn't make sense for you.

From his perspective, if someone has a cheap guitar that needs an unjustifiable amount of work done, then he gets to sell them a new guitar.

One possible benefit for him is, if he can find cheap enough local repairs, it may save him money over a warranty return on an inexpensive instrument. Don't be that guy.

My local Guitar Center is littered with 'used' instruments that are warranty returns that they couldn't be bothered to send back for warranty repair. They just had their in-house guy do a quick (usually sloppy) crack stop or headstock repair and put it back on the floor for a discount.

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Jim Hansen

Tai Fu- if you go with a two tiered fee structure, what happens when the owner of a high-end Yairi asks for the low end rate for a bridge replacement? How do you explain that making a new rosewood replacement costs more for his guitar than for a low end Takamine. I don't have a whole lot of experience in guitar repair, but a lot of cheaper goods are more difficult to repair because of the manner in which they are constructed.
In my cabinetry business, customers sometimes think that just because they want a kitchen made out of pine that it is going to be half the price if it were made of cherry. I explain that the amount of work is the same, and that the only differance in price is the cost of the wood, and that labour accounts for the greater part of the total.
You might want to consider lowering your fee schedule, and appeal to the high end market, and still get some of the lower end as well. Once you get more established you can start to gradually raise your fees. When talking with clients, stress the value of a proper repair, and the work that goes into it!

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Quite often the lower quality instruments take MORE work to make playable than the higher quality one. A better built instrument may require only a setup, an if the frets are worn possibly a fret leveling as well, while a lower quality instrument will require fret levelling before setting up, and also the frets may need to be glued down before that's even possible.

Store owners are afraid of scaring off their clients with repair guys. What I find in reality is that people are willing to do what it takes to make even their low end instrument play as good as it possibly can, because it can be shown that any guitar in the price range of their instrument will likely need the same work to get the same result.

I had one store owner who wanted me to do quick neck tweaks and things like that, so that he could tell his customers that every guitar got a full professional setup with every sale.

That's good for him, but a quick recipe for disaster for you, as the customer won't be impressed with the "setup" job you did when they show their friend their guitar and he points out how bad a job you did compared to HIS guy who was allowed to do the actual full job. Needless to say they won't bring you any other guitars they have laying around the house, they'll take them to their friend's tech, and their friend won't bring you guitars either. If you try to go out on your own, forget it, unless you get out of there fast enough before your reputation as mediocre is solidified.

If not, pretty soon all you'll be doing is minor store setups for guitar sales for the store owner, and the customers will buy the guitar and take it to a "real" tech and actually pay them for the work.

I went to work somewhere else, where I was allowed to do my real work. People in fact brought me the guitars they bought from the other store and told me the guy didn't do a good job and they wanted me to set up their guitar instead. Frequently, they would pay $100 for a fret dress on a $150 instrument. Just explain that it takes as much or more time to level the frets on a low end instrument as a high end one, and they'll understand. The other option is to in fact charge less but do less, that can work as well, and budget minded customers will appreciate it while the higher end customers will actually WANT to pay more for a higher quality job and better service. It's all in how you present it. I always presented myself as always doing my best work no matter the quality of the instrument, as a mark of high standards.

You need to work in a store where the owner is willing to create some space between your repair business and his sales business, so that people know that your services are separate and above the sale price of the instrument, in fact a premium service. It can be done successfully, but both you and the store owner need to be on the same page, otherwise, you should resign yourself to being his store setup guy and nothing else.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

If the repair is the same, the price is the same. No question. Never cheapen yourself to get more work. If you do the best work in town, you will get the best customers in town. If you do cheap work, you will get cheap customers. What kind of repairman do you want to be? The cheapest in town or the best in town? The choice is yours. Choose wisely!
Guitar whisperer posted while I was writing my post so I need to clarify things. He has been doing repairs for a long time and you should heed his advice. Never, ever cheapen your work. Work within your price point but reduce the amount of work you do for that price. If you dont, you will have to do cheap work for everyone

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

Tai,

The other thing you may be seeing - though the owner may not tell you....

The owner may try to use you as "Warranty" work on those cheap guitars or to sort out cheap guitars that show up out of whack.... He may be trying to get you to work for a discount - so he doesn't loose money when he sells those instruments....

It's not that uncommon for some certain % of instruments showing up to be out of whack... Some stores sell them as-is... Some send them to a Luthier to get sorted out... Some refuse the bad instruments and send them back... Not sure what the normal policy in Taiwan is, but if they are Imports from China... then they don't send them back... The Chinese company normally just gives them some sort of a kickback or rebate for the ones that are messed up.....

Unfortunately, those cheap guitars are selling for something like $10.00 US at the dock in China... so say 10% of the 1,500 instruments in a cargo container are bad - well... you get a rebate for $1,500 back.... But... what are they ever going to do with 150 bad guitars? They can't repair them for $1,500 - but they certainly don't want to scrap them either... If you agree to do the work cheap - that fellow can then sell those instruments at full price and still make some profit....

If you do decide to work like this - then determine some sort of hourly price rate you will charge the fellow.... You fix as many instruments as you can within the allotted time, and charge him your hourly rate.... Sure - the ones with bad necks and the smashed up ones will still get scrapped... but you can fix a lot of high frets and bad nuts and paint chips and mis-glued bridges in a couple hours....

In the other case of owners of cheap instruments.... Most owners of those instruments will understand - and even appreciate the cost of doing the job correctly the first time.... Say you do $200.00 worth of setup and repair work on a $150.00 guitar (Nut, saddle, intonation, neck adjustment, full fret crown and level) - it's still only $350.00 total - and likely any guitar under $500 will need that same work done to it anyway.... Every cheap guitar I have ever bought always did....

Thanks

Your store owner is full of poop.
Charge full pop.... because your time is worth it (even if his isn't).

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Actually it may even be longer. Cheapo guitars often times are harder to repair and take more time.

+1

I'm sure that store owner can send you enough work to over flow your benches if your prepared to under cut yourself so he's the only one making money out of your efforts...he's full of crap.

Thanks for the advise.

I never felt good about having a different fee structure for low end instruments, mostly because cheap instruments are harder to fix than good ones.

I offer setup, fret level/dress/etc and I do offer a slight discount when they have me do a combination of things, for example if they do a fret level with me I would also do a setup free of charge, etc.

I find that Westerners are far more reasonable when it comes to guitar repairs, Taiwanese people just look for the cheapest possible service they can find but still expect a lot, they complain about little things. I don't really get too many Taiwanese customers but I do know most people around me have cheap Yamahas but sometimes people don't understand the value of a fret level and a good setup. Even some higher end guitars like Gibson requires a fret level, and most of the cheap tech I mentioned (who does work for stores) don't offer a fret level, and some have unreasonably low price (like around 60 dollars) for a refret. Problem for me is, I don't know how they can offer such low prices if the material costs at least that much, but some of those techs are like a one man Wal-Mart...

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

that's funny

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It's this new idea from recent decades that everyone gets a participation award. - MUX

Decide for yourself... What is right for you today or this month may not be right for you in a year... That is perfectly fine. It's just the reality of life and starting your own business...

Sometimes you gotta do things like this to get experience and reputation and to put food on the table today... The understanding may also be that you will only do "Discount" work like this for him as you have time - with no guarantees about when you can get it done....

No one else but you can make this decision about what is right but you... You may decide that getting paid something is better than getting paid nothing... especially when you are trying to get established...

There's no shame in this... Lots of folks do things like this to fill up their schedule... At some point - you will have enough real life paying business where you just don't have much time for the "Discount" stuff... and you quit taking it... That's OK too... but it's probably where those "Wal-mart" fellows go wrong... They have some crazy 2-year backlog on full price paying work - but they are still taking in half price work from the store down the street - frequently because they feel they have some sort of debt to the guys who filled up their bench when they had no business at all.....

Thanks

I am not even sure if I can get a store like that to fill my bench at half price, because stores that sees the volume the likes of Guitar Center in Taiwan are very few, and they all have suckers who have for years and years taken in work at very low cost. On top of that they have a huge backlog of full priced work too. I think if a store wanted me to be their sucker they probably want a long term cooperation, which isn't something I am looking at. Most other mom and pop music stores in Taiwan pays their bills by offering music lessons, and they sell few, if any guitars. Right now my bench has a few guitars from friends and church, most of which aren't too expensive. Thing is, I can't really do good work if I have to rush through them, which is what offering half priced work will do, as they'll most likely set some kind of a deadline.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Speaking of Guilds, I still have one on my bench for nearly 2 months... it was just a bridge repair that I thought was simple but it just did not want to let go despite scorching heat without damage. So I spent a lot of time fixing those damages, with an impatient owner still asking how it's going...

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

... eye on the ball ...

The commodity that you're selling is your skill set. That knowledge and experience that skill set brings with it doesn't change regardless of where it's applied, so neither should the rate at which you rent it out. I was self employed by choice for most of my life and my experiences taught me early on that discounting the rate at which I rent out my skill set only brought poor, uncaring or miserly customers. The opposite was also true, and "up to a certain point" (that point being known as "what the market will bear"), increasing my rates brought customers who genuinely wanted quality products and service, and who were willing to pay for it. Dealing only with those customers allowed me to charges rates that meant I could take the time to do quality work and supply quality product. That combination always results in happy customers and good referrals.

cheers

John (not a luthier, but ... business is business...)

I agree with most all of the previous posters. I would do it when the car repair shop starts charging me half price for repairs on my 12 year old Honda. That being said, some of the best advice I got when I started doing repairs (especially when considering higher-end instruments), is that I should be prepared to write a check for the full value of any instrument that I was working on. That kept me practicing on lower priced guitars until I could pop the bridge off of an expensive one without my stomach churning too badly....