Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi All,

In my virtual travels through the world of luthiery, I occasionally see someone refer to themselves or another as a Master luthier. It seems that, in Germany, and maybe other countries, there is actually a form of certification of Master. I am curious as to who bestows the title, and does it imply specific training with formalized recognition.

Thanks, Beth

In the best light, "Master Luthier" is a title bestowed by admirers on an instrument repairer/builder who they hold in high esteem. At worst I suppose it is a title someone bestows on themselves. My opinion of course. It doesn't hold much water in many cases, I suspect.

In my book, the masters are the ones who's work is very clearly defined. You can go to a show and without a doubt see a guitar and say "Oh there's a Somogyi", or "Cool, the Pagelli booth." Usually this means that these people were getting started in this before it existed so they have had no template or mold to put themselves in and so they've created this from the ground up. This is what has allowed them to create their unique style.

There is a very important second half to this, and that is skill. There are some very good young luthiers out there that have their own style that is being developed, but their skills haven't allowed them to create instruments that quite meet the "masterbuilt" category. In some cases I think one can be considered a master if their skills are really extraordinary.

I don't know if there is official certification for master luthiers in the US. I wish there was. It would be more special that way. Anything to mirror the master craftsman heritage of Japan or Germany would make me proud to aspire to be great.

In many other aspects / jobs / etc. Its based on the time a person has been at their craft . Alot of the time " Master" isnt applied till a person is dead !

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/

Wasn't it an Old World type of thing? I thought you had to have built a cello, a violin, and a harp to earn the title. I could be (and probably am) off my rocker though. Padma would likely know...

There are formal guilds in Europe where they assign the title when certain skills and levels have been achieved. Outside of a guild the title is often self appointed and relatively meaningless.

I might lean more towards "exemplary" chops ...the one in a hundred type....but we're splitting hairs.
Unfortunately today, with everybody banging on about offering THE GREATEST, MOST FANTASTICALLY AWESOME (whatever) YOU'LL EVER SEE!", the decision to consider someone a "master" (at anything) should be yours, not his!

_________________
Dave
Milton, ON

Hi,

these honorific titles can be found in European crafts, indeed.
In Germany they are called Baumeister, meaning "master builder" litterally.

Im not a baumeister , But I AM A BEERmeister !! Does that count ?

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/

This is especially so in Germany, where the apprenticeship/Guild system is quite strong. My wife even has a wicker shopping basket from Germany made by a "Master" in that craft.
In Sweden, for example, where I built a guitar with Mika of Sanden Guitars http://www.sandenguitars.com/eng/about_us.html after studying with a recognised builder, I think you have to submit two instruments for approval by appropriate "body", both in sound and craftsmanship, before being recognised as a Master Guitar Builder, .

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

The term "Master" ...(insert craft here) in the European tradition of guild, journeyman, apprentice, had nothing whatsoever to do with the level of skill attained, it referred to the economic status of the individual.

A "Master " ...(whatever) was the man who employed other craftsmen, some of whom would in all likelihood have developed greater skills than the "Master", but who were still employees until such time as they set up their own establishments, at which time they would then be entitled to be called "Master".

As a self-assigned title in the New World, the term is absolutely meaningless.

I see the term applied on quite a few USA websites where the builder applies the term to themselves.

Since the term means nothing legally, or even practically, anyone can use it.

It is marketing as a means to get a commission, I suppose.

_________________
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008907949110

In education, a master's degree is an academic degree granted to individuals who have undergone study demonstrating a mastery or high-order overview of a specific field of study or area of professional practice. Within the area studied, graduates are posited to possess advanced knowledge of a specialized body of theoretical and applied topics; high order skills in analysis, critical evaluation and/or professional application; and the ability to solve complex problems and think rigorously and independently. (from Wikipedia)

A master builder would possess an equivalant level of mastery within the field of luthiery.

Basically, they can build whatever they want, whenever they want, however they want, and possess superior critical thinking, evaluation, and problem solving skills.

Think master mechanic. Not everyone who works on cars is one, although there are some extremely competent auto technicians.

Even though there is no formalized master luthier program accredited here in America, we can apply similar standards to the field of luthiery, I believe, and come up with a realistic evaluation of whether or not someone who calls themselves a Master Luthier really is one.

_________________
Old growth, shmold growth!

Interesting replies. Frankly, it is exactly as I thought..sometimes a compliment by other recognized experts, but often a self-agrandizing advertizing effort. Thanks for the input!

My Dad was sometimes referred to as a Master Carpenter on occasion. I think it was meant as a compliment. He never referred to himself as one, but when I was baiting hooks on a charter boat, many years ago, sometimes they would call me a Master, but that is a whole different story.

As you all have stated its from Europe, and when they refer to MASTER they are simply referring to ..... ME .. My master was Master Yoda a real ugly carpenter from a far of galaxy.
..

need any expertise. don't be afraid to ask..

Master Lars.

You just crack me up Lars!

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Here in the states, a master carpenter is usually a title that is confired by the carpenter's union. I was one once, and I had to have 5 years experience and pass a written test.

That's not my understanding. I believe that the European guild system ranked people on the basis of their skills, and to attain the title of master, one had to complete a specific project to the standards of the guild.

That project was, literally, your "master" piece.

masterpiece
c.1600, from master + piece. A translation of Du. meesterstuk "work by which a craftsman attains the rank of master" (cf. Ger. Meisterstück).

Good one. I'm a commercial fisherman. It takes a good many years of baiting before the term will be bestowed upon you.

Master is actual Mister so it is Mr Luthier . Or Masteress thusly Mrs. Luthier . I think the Mr was Lex Luthier and Mrs was Lysteria Luthier .

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Interesting. I was just thinking of this term the other day when I found out that a certain vendor has a "master" section of wood that only "masters" can be allowed to see or purchase.

As I remember, when ASIA was formed - that was one of the things we planned on rectifying.
Never happened, obviously.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

For the most part I see builders calling themselves "Masters". IME the true "Masters" are too humble to give themselves such a title.

In the old Guilds I think the levels were "Apprentice", "Journeyman" and "Master".

_________________
I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

Each of these answers is correct in its own way. The term does originate with the trade guild system, and it did once apply to many trades in the Americas, too. An apprentice did learn a trade through several years of study in a master's shop. The apprentice then became a journeyman for a period of time, and was able to work independently. Eventually, after several years of study and work, the journeyman presented a "masterpiece" of work to the guild for consideration and review. If the reviewing board of guild members deemed the work up to the highest standards of the guild, the journeyman was then pronounced to be a "master" who could begin teaching the craft to a new generation of apprentices.

...But now, almost anyone with an ego can self-appointed themselves a "master." Whether the true masters of the craft will agree with the appointment is another matter.

As a curious sidelight, I have a copy of an ancestor's will. He made nice provisions for his wife, his elder sons, and his daughters, but he willed that his youngest son should be "bound to a trade". Can you imagine anyone binding a child into indentured servitude? This particular indentured boy turned out to be my great grandfather. I don't believe the practice was uncommon at all in frontier Missouri, USA, in the early 1800s. I've read numerous examples of this happening during that era. Perhaps the most notable example in my area was the case of the famous frontier scout, "Kit" Carson, who was bound to a saddle maker. Kit helped manufacture the tackle and trappings of pioneers who left Franklin, Missouri to head west on the Santa Fe Trail. One day, he skipped town and headed west himself, and eventually carved out a name for himself in the history books. His master took out a locally-famous ad in the Franklin newspaper, offering a reward of one cent for Kit's return. Obviously, he either didn't see much value in the boy, or he was quite fond of young Kit, and understood his quest for freedom and adventure. Both stories are true.

Patrick