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hi guys, wonder if some of you in this side of the pond would let me know of tonewood dealers that stock carpathian spruce sets, now that Martin´s best eurospruce seems to be idle.

thanks in advance,
Miguel.

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member of the guild of professional dilettantes

Martin apparently isn't idle. I spoke to a prominent builder who received an order from Martin four months ago with no issues, and said the tops were very good.

thanks, that´s good to know. from mail exchange and chit-chat around forums i got the impression he was into some sabbatical thing.

also puzzling the fact that besides him, google keeps sending me to american suppliers for carpathian spruce...

cheers,
miguel.

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member of the guild of professional dilettantes

Sorry, posted in error

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Bernardo, I have never bought from them but they usually have some carpathian spruce:
http://www.best-eurospruce.com/index.html

That's the "Martin" he mentioned in his first post.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Bob http://www.rctonewoods.com usually has nice spruce from Ukraine. I did not buy any yet but from the pics it looks very attractive: tight grain, well quartered, low runout. Other than this I don't know what is the fuss about Carpathian in general. I don't have tops but a bunch of brace stock salvaged from old constructions or picked by myself from the mountains and it is in no way any different than the spruce I got from the and around Alps. Of course each piece has it's own little differences but one can easily tell it is the same species.

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Build log

I agree Alexandru, 'Carpathian' is just European Spruce with added marketing. It's just as variable as any other geographical clone of Picea abies. I've got Carpathian, German, Swiss, Austrian and Italian and if its origin wasn't written on it I couldn't tell the difference. It's more important what altitude and face it was growing on than the stamp on its passport. I think the whole Carpathian thing was based on one batch probably from a single tree that was imported into the USA some years ago, no guarantee that other Carpathian will resemble that batch.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

thanks for the replies guys! (tudo bem antónio?)

Alexandru, i thought that you would answer this, being located near the Carpathians. that means you´ve never buit a top from it? i´m surprised... aren´t there any decent mills in Romania you could use to get good tops for cheap?

exactly. i want to find that hard truth for myself. i´d like to gather samples from different provenances and try to spot tendencies, if any are to be found. too much internet info, AKA instant wisdom, is starting to become tiresome . i want to feel this things for myself.... maybe it´s just too much time on my hands.

Colin, since we´re at it, would you be so kind as to share some info on why high-altitude spruce is preferable to higher latitude / lower altitude spruce? i reckon the longer and colder winter and relatively cool summers are beneficial to a more tight and regular growth ring pattern but you could get that in, say, northern sweden. is it the long winters and short sun-light periods that are counter-productive for the northern spruce?
Totally unrelated, but another thing that intrigues me is the viability of spruce from the Urals for lutherie purposes. It´s the same species as euro spruce (well, to most authors at least... even those who consider it a different species admit that it is almost indistinguishable fro P. Abies), is abundant and grows in a mountain range. just musing...


cheers,
Miguel.

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member of the guild of professional dilettantes

There is a lot of milling (in fact the unofficial rumor is that we cut 2/3 from what we had 20y ago) but not much for tonewood. A few times I saw suitable logs in the cut piles along some of my mountain trips but of course i couldn't haul more than a few samples. There is some tonewood activity centered around Reghin where we have a giant factory and several small violin builders but it is too far from me and I never got a chance to go and explore. I also think both some American and European tonewood dealers have mills there but I don't know exactly who.

I don't think you will be able to find much in terms of country differences, at least not without buying a lot of of it over the years. I'm not there yet. But most of us will agree spruce from Italy can be lighter in general, and that some Swiss spruce can be extremely finely grained, but that is all. (And that for any spruce appearance (grain tightness) is definitely not an indicator of density or stiffness)

I think the best thing with tonewood is to find a regular source, regardless of area. Someone you trust and like with both the commercial and tonewood aspects.

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Build log

Miguel, regarding the high altitude versus low altitude spruce it is mostly a length of day/ growing season issue as to get a good mix of summer ring/winter ring growth that is even you need an even environment. I know that the reason why I choose Fiemme valley spurce (ciresa or rivolta) or swiss spruce (tonewood.ch or Martin Guhl) is because of even growth spruce that is neither tight grain (which can sometimes be compression wood) or wide grain which would be from rapid growth in a mild, wetter summer seasons which are more common in lower elevations.

Another fact that is often overlooked is that when some spruce species are grown in an area without much density that the tree will bend to follow the light. I know that Shane who has Lutz spruce from Canada has seen trees that look nice and straight but if you follow the bark you can see it spiral which means there will be run out as spruce can twist while growing.

Alexandru is correct about the key finding a regular source as the best spruce can be ruined by someone that doesnt understand run out and spruce that is not quite as good can produce a good sounding top if well split and sawn with care.

Colin, never underestimate the value of marketing. Rarely is it spoken of but it takes as much time to do a guitar with great materials as it does with average ones, so you have to figure out a way to charge more where you can - extra costs extra. A number of prominent builders are no longer offering Brazilian as a simple up charge, but rather are making it only available if you order their premium package which allows them to get more mileage out of it. The money numbers of instrument making are not in the builder's favor -- there are lots of risks and the rewards monetarily are modest at best. If I have wood from a particular region and someone thinks its magical and will pay me because I have that wood, and pay a premium for it, then it helps me stay afloat.

Dave don't get me wrong I have nothing against a business marketing their products in an imaginative way, I just don't want a fellow guitar builder to labour under the impression that 'Carpathian' is a magic bullet to luthiery Nirvana. Good spruce is good spruce.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Yes Miguel,

it is a good idea to work with spruce form different trees.

However Colin speaks truth.

Not only that....but

Once the bark has been removed, it is impossible to tell (even in a laboratory) the type of spruce it is or where it came from (with the exception of sitka)

They say qualities vary from species to species. But it also varies from tree to tree and from even different parts of the tree....some times even from consecutive slices from the vary same billet of wood.

The very simple truth here is, its all labels and marketing hype. There are even dealers that give their wood fancy names...like Iron Wood or Pink Passion and Snow White Leopards Paw.

The very bottom line is...if the wood looks good, feels good, smells good and
tastes good...then use it.

Now once you find something you like...me suggest you buy the whole tree or as much of it as you can. Then spend the next several years becoming one with that wood. I have a few different trees that i have harvested, frowed, racked, dried and are in storage, that I am still comeing to know and understand over the years, yet the wood still sometime surprises me.

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However Miguel, if you really want the very best of the very best, well then me do has some 800 year old Mongolian spruce tops recut from the support beams of Genghis Khans yurt...stiff like Viagra...very rare wood!
Me could let you has a set for $1000.

lbessings
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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once again, thanks for your input guys! it´s really appreciated.

Shawn, that´s what i hoped for as an answer. The question now turns into "how high is high enough for good instrument spruce'" right?

Regarding marketing hype, i guess "Carpathian" does function as a marketing gizmo, in fact even "european spruce" should not be an innocent choice of words.

Padma, nice to read your words o´wisdom. i think i´ll have to pass on the mongolian spruce, though, as i´m saving for a "curvy-Palin maverick cedar" set from a well known dealer. Or maybe i´ll take the "incredibly crunchy praline cedar-spruce hybrid"... decisions, decisions...

cheers,
miguel.

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member of the guild of professional dilettantes

Yo, Miguel

Personally me would drive up into the Serra da Estrela, find some wood cutter and score me a shift load of wood.

Remember .... once the bark is off, nobody nobody but can tell where it came from.

Non the less....
someone on this European list should be able to hook you up to carpathian (ya right)

try this guy for real German spruce.

http://www.germanspruce.com/

then there are

http://www.gleissner-tonewood.de/English/The_Company/the_company.html

MADERAS BARBER S. A.
C. Sagunto 7
P. Industrial Fuente
Jarro, Valencia, 46988 - Paterna, Spain

LIVANE TONEWOOD LTD.
Istanbul, Turkey
http://www.livane.com


BRUDER FUCHS 0HG
Am Fishweiher 40
Postfach 262
8102 Mittenwald, Germany


ANDREAS GLEISSNER
Mozartstrasse 12
D 91088
Bubenreuth, Germany
Tel: +49-9131-24164 Fax: +49-9131-25229
http://www.gleissner.franken.com

Fa. KOLLIZ
Kairlindach 64
8521 Weisendorf
Germany

S.V.S. TONEWOODS
Grosslingova 40, 811 09
Bratislava, Slovakia
Phone/Fax: 421 7 714 689
sima@internet.sk

Fa. KREUTZER, HUSSELMUHLE 3
D-8102 Mittenwald
Germany

THEODOR NAGEL GMBTH.
Billstrasse 118
Germany
2000 Hamburg 26

SPLINTERS
Alhambra House
5 The Campsbourne
London, N8 7PN, United Kingdom


Rivolta s.n.c.
via Vittorio Veneto 7
20033 Desio (MI) Italy
+0362-621608
fax: +0362-300734
Italian Spruce and Cypress

http://www.liuteria-antica.com/tonewood/spruce.html

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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thanks for the list Padma, there are some dealers there i was unaware of. Regarding the Serra da estrela, i don´t know if there is a lot of spruce there, but it´s a natural park and one is not allowed to harvest wood there. Do you know the Serra? fine place for some lonely walks amidst the sheep and wolves. lovely place.

cheers,
miguel.

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member of the guild of professional dilettantes

The place to poach some soundboard material is Sierrania de Ronda in SE Andalusia. Not spruce but a fir - abies pinsapo. One early Torres made in 1856 has written inside in pencil "pino malagueno 1812" - how cool is that? Maybe more of his guitars were made from Spanish fir rather than Alpine spruce.

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Build log

hey, alexandru, stop tempting me... i don´t want to ruin my karma by grabbing a tree from a park, even if i´m following Torres footsteps... wait a minute, did you say Torres?

cheers,
Miguel.

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member of the guild of professional dilettantes