Official Luthiers Forum!

not exactly guitars.. but ancestor and cousin of the guitar... and the lack of a misc. instrument forum leads me to post this here.. besides, the techniques are all the same except for making the body of the lute (but that in itself isnt difficult either)

so.. has anyone ever built or played either one?.. im thinking of building a lute with 5 or 6 courses (10-12 strings).... or a 5 course 10 string cittern, and i was wondering what experience people has with these?

to build either one i will have to research further information on specifics... from what i gathered to make a lute body.. one would cut a wedge out of wood and then a curved contour would be cut out of the side of that to bend the body pieces together, and when all pieces are placed side to side would form the curved back of the lute body... fairly straightforward.. and the cittern body appears to basically be a typical flat back acoustic body in the shape of a tear drop

that aside.. the information i need is on scale lengths, tunings.. and less important are fingerboard radiuses and tuning machines (im sure they just used wood on wood friction pegs like a violin) but guitar tuners could probably be substituted.. or at the very least, banjo style metal/metal friction pegs

as for lute.. im looking for something with no more than 6 courses.. so late medieval/early renaissance style when they used 5 or 6.. ive noticed the medieval lute is tuned almost exactly like a guitar, but each string a couple notes higher in pitch so a 12 string 6 course lute would allow me to play just about any guitar piece too...

anyone know what sort of scale lengths i would be looking at, or know where i can find more information with dimensions neccessary to build one, using these dimensions with the guitar/violin building skills i already have?

I urge you to get the Lundberg book:
http://www.luth.org/books/book.htm#lute
To my knowledge, the only authoritative publication on the subject and an excellent one even for those who do not build lutes. Lute construction and overall techniques differ considerably from a guitar's. Not the ancestor of the guitar either.

_________________
Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

I have not built a lute and don't play lute either, but I am very interested in the subject and can second this:

I can't imagine though which would be the ancestor of the guitar if not the lute.
(Yes, of course the baroque and renaissance guitars, and if you want the vihuela de mano are the ancestors, but these were guitars as well... )

Another valuable source are the CDs and plans of David Van Edwards (Renaissance Lute, Baroque Lute). Not cheap but worth every cent (or penny). These CDs are full of practical advice. A great complement to Lundberg's indispensable book.

Over there on the ANZLF there's a great Lute build chronicle (thread 1, thread 2) which shows that it is possible (with a lot of skill and patience).

Very few of us guitar builders have built a lute. All of us, however, should recognize its importance in our history.
If you haven't picked up a good lute and strummed across its courses, how can you call yourself a luthier?
The reason I reject using the term ''luthier" is this disconnect.

If you are going to GAL next week, seek out a real luthier, and see what he does.

_________________
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008907949110

Your method of constructing the bowl is a simplified version of how historical instruments were made. Even so it does take practice to be able to produce decent Lute bowls. Errors can quickly multiply and it's difficult to recover.
I don't understand why you would want to fit modern tuning mechanisms to such an instrument. Given the number of tuners required it would result in a very unbalanced (weight wise) instrument.

The lute and the guitar had different evolutionary paths and coexisted at the same time. The lute did not lead at all to the guitar, but I know it is tempting to view history in a linear fashion, and linear it is not. The lute's evolution pretty much stopped at the Baroque era around the time when the pianoforte, then the piano, became the de facto "main" chamber instrument. While the guitar continued its evolution, following distinct paths in France & Italy (very closely related in the 19th century as a direct consequence of the Napoleonic wars), Austria & Germany, Spain and the USA. There are examples of figure 8 shaped string instruments in Antiquity.

_________________
Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Over the years I have made a number of lutes of various types from 8 to 13 course, in addition to restoring quite
a few original period instruments. No two of them had the same scale length, the frets are tied on gut and can be fitted to the end result.

To make the lute shell is a complex process, which first involves making an internal mould on which the individually bent and shaped ribs and the separating purflings are fitted. To do this accurately is not a process that is easy, as anyone that has actually made one will attest.

Oh, and to fit anything other than pegs would add considerable mass to the head and result in a different instrument entirely. A lute is an incredibly lightly built instrument, and any unnecessary mass would change its character.

As has been suggested, get a good book and plan, Lundberg is the obvious one, as is David's DVD, and follow their advice. Or what you end up building will be a stringed instrument, but certainly not a lute.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

the guitar diverged sometime before that.. but after that split, the lute still continued to be developed... for example, look at human evolutions.. just because humans technically evolved from chimps, and earlier monkies, lemurs, and even rats doesnt mean these animals disappeared because of it, or ceased to exist... the modern flute evolved from old wooden fipple flutes, yet in some forms of music these flutes still exist

anyway.. a major difference i see between lutes and citterns is well, besides the rounded body.. the lute has the 90 degree headstock and appears to be tuned in fourths... the cittern, designed to be easier to make at the time (with modern techniques and tools, ones not any more difficult than the other anymore).. but also, this instrument seems to be tuned in fifths

tuning in fourths is the way to go on longer scale instruments since you can comfortable handle all the chords.. but on long necks tuned in fifths, it becomes a stretch, and speed is slowed down.. obviously, with practice it can still be done, but if you notice most cellos and mandocello type instruments tend to play more scales than chords

i really like the sound of double stringed instruments such as these... they seem to have a richer, more fuller sound.. obviously, so i actually like the way the sound vs a stadnard 6 string guitar

i guess you could add to my list of interest, the octave mandolin which is pretty similar in sound to these

well, i guess its a hard choice... the lute seems to have a lot of "wasted" string space on it.. by that i mean, a medieval lute has about a 24 inch scale tuned in fourths about 2 notes higher in pitch each string than a guitar... but of that 24" scale length, half, or maybe even less is actually fretable mostly because the bridge is almost to the tail piece end of the entire instrument... should someone make a longer neck and move the tail piece higher, closer to the sound hole you would be given more fingerboard room for a wider range of notes and scale but then would it really be a medieval lute?

with octave mandolin you have a tuning in fifths with a shorter scale which allows you about as much range, more fingerboard space, and overall a rather pleasent sound.. with the option of using all the songs you learn on a regular mandolin, or even a violin as well

tough decision, and i only have the time to make one of them right now

btw.. i am looking for something a little lighter to carry around than my guitar.. it seems a cittern would defeat this purpose as its about the same size as a guitar.. a lute or an octave mandolin seems like it would be about perfect

the luthier i´m apprenticing with specialises in lutes, citterns and vihuelas (and baroque guitars) replicas. i guess he started just with the lundberg book. the lute society and the galpin society both provide valuable information in the form of journals and publications. if you wish you can forward me some questions and i´ll try to reach him (he´s on vacation ATM).

as for history, IMVHO, it´s really not much more than a contraction of diverging narratives, with the vanishing point in the present. are there really constellations in the sky?

cheers,
miguel.

_________________
member of the guild of professional dilettantes

You obviously don't want a lute. Moving the bridge up the soundboard towards the rose (not soundhole on a lute) would change the whole nature of the instrument. You can use a longer neck and scale, as in the Archlute, but of course with that comes additional mass and bulk.

Having carried both lutes and guitars to concerts and recitals I can assure you that a lute in its case, which you'd have make as well, is a far more awkward thing to carry around than a guitar.

I'd stick to considering an octave mandolin or maybe a guitar cittern.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

the lute does seem like it would be akward to carry because of its rounded body and 90 degree neck angle...

about that neck angle... how is the headstock fitted to the neck?.. it seems like prior to gluing the fingerboard inplace, one could drill a hole through the neck and into the fingerboard to glue a dowel going through both to add extra support to the headstock for a little reassurance in the future

eventually i tend to have the late medieval style lute in pretty close to its origional form.. im not sure if thats what i should play with right now..

i wonder though... though i doubt it.. but did lutes or citterns have any form of truss rod in them?.. or were they typically short lived instruments?.. i believe stewmac sells a truss rod kit you can cut to length, but im curious if they were at all used in those instruments?... gut strings werent under as much tension as metal ones, so i dont think it was really needed... and my intension is to use nylon strings as an alternative to that

I have made several lutes years ago back when the Lungberg book first came out and when I was playing in early music groups. While it is a very interesting instrument to build and it is an important instrument to preserve, in terms of your playing goals, I agree completely with Colin in that a better instrument for you would be a cittern guitar or a octave mandolin.

Beside the very light construction it is important to remember that with a lute the fingerboard is flush the top and that the frets are tied, not inlaid so the style of playing is very different in that the strings are struck by the flesh of the fingertips, not the nails. If you are going to be playing guitar repetiore then a cittern guitar is a better choice.

In the beginning of the 20th century in Germany it was popular to build instruments with bodies like a lute but with a guitar tuning and fingerboard with frets. Sometimes they are found as the name Bass Lutes but they were really a guitar form with a lute shaped body and have no other construction in common with lutes.

If you want to build a lute, it is a better thing to not put in a truss rod or any other form of neck reinforcement as it really is no longer a lute at that point in that the weight and balance of the instrument would be very different. As far as strings there are synthetic gut which is very acceptable and lasts much longer and is much less expensive than gut strings.

I build spanish classical guitars and am used to building very lightly but lutes take light construction to a whole other level. Because of that lutes are more sensitive to changes in temperature and humidity and compared to guitars are more fragile. If you are planning on travelling with your instrument as you mentioned, this is another reason to favor a cittern guitar or octave mandolin.

I don't want to turn this thread into a discussion about the ancestors of the guitar, I just would like to leave the following remarks on that topic:

I think it is well accepted that the guitar did not evolve from these figure 8 shaped instruments from Antiquity, although pictures of these might have been the inspiration to make a plucked instrument similar to those (which would coincide with the Spirit of Renaissance).

When talking of "ancestors" I did not think of a direct evolution. But animus_divinus's comparison with monkeys and manhood comes very close to my idea of "instrument evolution".

There exists a letter of the Italian luthier Lorenzo de Pavía from March 13, 1500 directed to Isabella d'Este where he stated that he was sending now a "big lute a la spagnola" with which he meant a spanish guitar. So to say, the term vihuela or guitarra did not yet seem to exist / be established, but the instrument did / was.

Sources:

• El estilo español de construcción de guitarras, Julio Gimeno García, in Antonio de Torres y la guitarra andaluza, 2007
• Pritzer, William F.: "Isabella d'Este and Lorenzo de Pavia 'Master Instrument Maker'", Early Music History, vol. 2. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1982: p.121

Regards,

about playing with the fingertips on a lute... well i can either play with the fleshy part or a plectrum.. since i dont have fingernals that extend beyond the fleshy part.. they tend to get in the way with other daily tasks, so i keep them pretty short..

anyway, im aware of the lutes flush fitting fingerboard and tied on frets.. and for historical accuracy, great... but besides historical accuracy, what harm does inlayed frets do to the sound of the instrument?

with nylon strings and friction pegs you already have to tune the instrument often... having to tune frets as well because one may have gotten pulled out of tonation seems like it would be a bit of a PITA...

anyway, my instruments remain in the room im in now, which is air conditioned.. therefor cool with low humidity

but yeah.. i agree with you guys that a traditional style lute will be fun to play with later on.. but an octive mandolin or a 5 course 10 string cittern would be better

whats more historically accurate for the cittern anyway?.. the smaller 22-ish inch scale or the longer 25-ish inch scale.. i see both of them, and it seems like 25+ inches in scale length would be a bit much to tune in 5ths, and would have to be tuned in fourths.. however the shorter scale length is short enough to tune in fifths, which overall would actually give the instrument more range than a standard guitar.. and in that sense a 22 inch scale cittern would essentially end up being little more than an octive mandolin with a fifth course added

The reference to the "big lute a la spagnola" was referring to a Vihuela de mano, the true predecessor to the guitar in Spain as the first reference to it was in text from 1475 (Pepe Rey, 2002). It was in 1502 that the Violeros guild in Sevilla drafted the first Ordinances (rules of the guild) which described the building of Vihuelas, harps, viols and lutes. In 1503 there is a description of several Lutes belonging to the Spanish queen Isabela 1 in which they were described as having ribs which were one piece as in "sides". (Felippe Pedrell, 1901)

By 1527 when the final ordinances were published, the description of the Vihuela De Mano was described as having sides made of ribs as different from Vihuela and Lutes with a bowl made of ribs.

It was in the ninth century when the player and lute maker Zyriad introduced the persian lute to Spain. While there were several centuries of lute building in Spain before the evolution of the vihuela de mano, it is with the vihuela de mano that we have the first instrument that looks and is built like a guitar.

There are existing 16th and 17th century examples of these vihuela de mano instruments on display in Siguenza, Spain in Centro de la Vihuela de Mano y La Guitarra Española "José Luis Romanillos". This is the worlds first and only museum dedicated strictly to the Vihuela de Mano and Spanish guitar. The museum is a joint venture between Jose Romanillos and the government of the state of Guadalajara, Spain. The museum also contains the tools and workbench of Santos Hernandez, 2 Torres guitars and over 40 other historically important instruments from major historic builders including representive examples from the different guitar building towns and regions in Spain.

interesting topic about the history of all this and such.. and just reminded me of another instrument that seems to be for the most part forgotten in the modern world.. the viol family of bowed instruments

dont really see many viols anymore... and well, the treble viol for example being a 6 stringed instrument tuned in fourths i think would have less range, and be more difficult to play than a modern violin.. though it would still be interesting to see more viol family instruments used as alternatives to the violin family instruments

how does this sound for flexibility and awesomeness... a shorter, roughly 22 inch scale cittern, 5 courses, 10 strings tuned CGDAE which will be both a cello, and an octive mandolin tuning in one cittern... basically the "octave mandolin" tuning, but instead of a high A string, add the lower C

anyway.. does anyone have schematics for a cittern or octave mandolin body?... im not sure if the octave mandolin body is 1:1 scale to a standard mandolin body, or if it scaled up