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I've been trying to calculate the environmental cost of instrument production for a small shop like mine, and I'm struggling. If any of you can point me in the right direction or have already investigated the subject and can help, please do.

It seems it may be rather high, with materials and tools coming from far and wide, to be assembled by me, sprayed and then shipped to a customer. I've found a couple of online calculators to measure our carbon footprint but not one that is directly relevant.


Any suggestions?


http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/nkforst ... _book.html

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nigel

http://www.theluthierblog.com

Hello, Nigel,
I can't offer any help directing you to relevant calculators, but I'll be interested to hear what you learn.
Actually, I'd guess the environmental cost of your operation would be rather low. Shipping great distances would obviously add more environmental cost than short distances, but your materials and instruments are riding along with tons of other cargo that will be shipped regardless of your very small contribution. You are probably using woods from sustainable forestry operations. What you spray is as important as how much of it you spray, and I'll bet you're careful with it. I'll bet you already recycle whatever you can, and that you're careful how you dispose of what can't be recycled. I respect your concern about all this, and your desire to know about your contribution, but I think people sometimes become too fixated on the carbon footprint.

are you talking about your personal environment? or "THE" environment as a whole?

If you're worried about environmental impact, then I'm sure there are things you could do to lessen your impact...

1) use local hardwoods wherever possible.
2) don't use epoxy products
3) use environmentally friendly finish (waterborne, or maybe shellac)
4) use hand tools wherever possible
5) don't use an air conditioner/dehumidifier in your shop

By and large, I don't think this is a real environmentally friendly industry. The most desirable woods are typically old growth rain forest trees.....

Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

It's a complex subject, especially with respect to rare woods. It would be far more simple if the rainforests weren't being wastefully burned to make room for cattle, or devoured by the Chinese furniture industry. But in those cases, increasing demand for timber may add pressure to manage the living forests intelligently, and making music out of at least a little bit of the wood is a more worthy use (in my biased opinion) than a simple cabinet, table, or bed frame that works just as well in farmed pine, and at most veneered if it really has to look fancy. But sometimes I do wonder if my life would be better put to use solving the problems that lead to destruction of forests, rather than building instruments out of them.

Certainly using local woods, especially salvaging logs that would otherwise be chopped up for firewood, is much more clearly good and honorable than getting involved in exotics. Lots of black walnut and osage orange around here to work with.

Another good strategy, as well as for life in general, is to share housing as much as possible. Divide the impact of heating and air conditioning, which is very nice for comfort aside from building. Humidify a small area in the winter. I do have a couple months out of the year where it's too cool to AC but too humid to glue though, so I'll have to add either a dehumidifier or hot box for that if I can't improve my timing to have lots of glue-free work lined up for it.

For finishing, I prefer French polishing for my own health (not that alcohol is entirely harmless) as well as the very small amount of material used, which is even biodegradable. Granted, at my production rate, nothing I do can cause that much trouble

If you live in a decent sized city, impact of shipping is lessened due to the volume of stuff being brought in and driven around town for delivery anyway. Remember it still burns fuel to drive around town yourself, and for materials to be shipped to stores, so being included on the UPS route (or having the package come along with your regular mail) may actually save energy. Packing materials are a great evil of personal packages though. Styrofoam peanuts are the worst, but I've gotten boxes with ridiculous amounts of packing paper or bubble wrap in them as well. It pains me every time I shove a big bunch of material into a trash bag. Reusing is best.

I also use almost pure hand tools within my own shop. I mostly buy pre-dimensioned top/back/side sets, neck blanks, bridge blanks, etc. so those did all involve energy use to cut from the trees, but likely less than if I was doing it myself in small batches, and eliminates the need for yet another set of big saws and sanders to be manufactured for me to own. But that decision is also simply because I dislike working with dangerous and noisy and space-taking power tools.

Lastly, compost your wood chips

It really isn't the wood you are using. Building a single home we would throw away as much wood in scrap as you would in 10 years of building. If anything it is the electricity and what it takes to produce it that has environmental consequences. But no matter you are doing you are likely using energy. If you are worried about the wood go plant a couple of trees some where or contribute to a koa planting project in hawaii. This whole wood using argument reminds me of a job in which we built a very fancy house for a very rich man. He wanted to be very environmental about the project so he purchase the finest used timbers from an outfit that specialized in used wood. The wood was trucked from all over the US. Thats great I guess but the job was so high end it took 4 years to complete the home with massive numbers of specialized subcontractors, lots of copper work for flashings you get the picture. One day when we were eating lunch I calculated how much gasoline was used by all the trucks bringing wood, labor, etc to and from the jobsite and I came up with $175,000 worth of gasoline. My point is it really wasn't the wood and in guitar making that is especially true.

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http://goatrockukulele.com

Preach it, Michael!

My attitude won't be popular here, but for us small shop and single craftsman to be worrying about this "green" stuff is just pulling our puds. In fact, the whole "save the earth" thing makes me sick.

It is the height of arrogance and hubris to think mankind has the power to "save" the earth. If you really want to get people's attention call it "save ourselves", because frankly, the earth was here before us - and will keep on keeping on after we are worm food.

Play mind games if you want, I have other things to do.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Don't forget to consider the "carbon footprint" of a computer, and internet connection.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

Im with Chris on this one. Often when people try to be "green" they really aren't being that green if you truly look at what they are doing. A lot of things that are touted as "green" have unintended negatives that the save the earth people dont think of. CFL bulbs have mercury in them; wind turbines such up the neodymium for the magnets, require lots of maintenance and dont last that long; ethanol uses lots of water to produce, takes away our food supply and takes forest and wetlands and turns them into farm fields; low flush toilets make you flush twice and end up using more water... The green thing just makes those who buy into it feel good about themselves. I love nature and am all for not dumping toxic sludge into waterways and conserving energy as a cost thing, but todays save the earth movement has crossed into nonsensical.

If you built thousands of instruments a year, then you may have a point on conserving material and energy. Not to be green, its really more a cost savings thing. For a hobby builder, dont delude yourself into thinking your miniscule energy and materials usage has any effect on the health of the earth. So your question on calculating your impact, dont waste your time. Spend that energy doing something useful. Plant some nice trees in your yard, it will look good, give you some shade and may remove the guilt of spending energy and wood to build a finely crafted musical instrument that someone will enjoy for a long time.

Yay Chris...



lay it all down like it really is. A1.

blessings
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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We are all cheering, calculating, and damning ourselves to oblivion. Oblivion.

Luthier goes green...

...except for that tree he needs.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

You may want to look here:
http://www.theoildrum.com/
A lot of people there are experienced with energy use and complex tabulations, a lot of posters work in energy related industries. Somebody may even be interested in collaborating with you, sharing methods or at least point you in the right direction, one just needs to ask.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

A couple of things I do in regards to this topic are 1) Use reclaimed wood when ever possible. I've gotten a hold of hundreds of extra floor boards made from Imbuia that I resaw into the right dimensions. It's ok to use 4 piece backs 2) buy trees. Yup you can buy trees. I own 100 mahogany trees that are a few years old in Costa Rica. I plan on buying more. I know the guy who runs the operation down there and here is his business plan. He grows trees for people to invest in. Once the trees mature he cuts them down and sells the lumber. Then the area is replanted with native species and left indefinitely never to be cut again. So essentially he is reforesting while also creating investments, lumber and jobs.

I've also used waterborne finishes for the last ten years though I am going to start trying French Polish.

Note that the OP asks about calculating environmental costs, and not how to reduce them. Nor what people's opinions and beliefs are concerning the use of materials and transportation in luthiery (or in 21st century life in general).

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Seems relevant to the conversation though yeah? I'm certainly interested to know how people reduce their carbon foot print as it's important to me and seemingly to the OP as well.

Well JF, it didn't seem the OP asked anybody's political view on the subject, but maybe I'm wrong. Given the responses, my hunch is that it is going nowhere.
My personal opinion since we're at it, is that all that stuff is blowing green smoke up people's arses, as Kunstler elegantly states in his rare moments of lucidity. Sitting on one's hands and stating platitudes about the earth still going after we're long gone is not better, perhaps worse. Both exhibit a blatant lack of lucidity and are representative of our solipsistic and therapeutic age.
Trade on a large scale existed as early as the Neolithic period, most likely before. Clearly that is not going to stop. Dig deeper.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

This thread is really a grey area, as it borders on the POLITCS venue . Typicaly , when I see the word environmental, it/s just another code word for someone eager to spin their political point of view, and this thread really should be someplace else . My 2 cents

Ah ok I see your point but I didn't intend for my post to be political just to offer advice for anyone interested in ways. And I probably incorrectly assumed you were refering to my post because the response came right after.

Anyhoo So back on topic. I got nothin'

I think it would be a very difficult thing to assess accurately though.

NK, are also you going to figure in the "cost" of actually doing the calculation, and the "cost" of the "cost" of doing the calculation, and the "cost" of the "cost" of the "cost" of doing the calculation, ad infinitum? What about the "cost" of asking your question on this thread? What accuracy were you expecting to get? What will you do with the results when you are done calculating them anyway? IMNSHO, you are wasting your time and will not prove anything, either way.

Dave F.

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Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

Dave, I think curiosity about this is valid, if useless perhaps. It is probably impossible to assess correctly, because of the sheer complexity of the factors involved and the choice that has to be made as to where to start and where to stop.
My hunch is that a luthier building a dozen instruments or so per year is less than a drop in the ocean. Even the lifestyle of most builders is probably as small a footprint as you get: most are at or below poverty levels (for the US…).
A bit like when WalMart decides to go environmental on one thing vs. an individual doing it. The former has huge effects that ripples through the global economy and encourages smaller companies to follow, the latter is mostly a "feel good" measure.
Politics and diplomacy is where it's at, because politics creates institutions and establishes laws. As unfortunate and hard to follow the Lacey act and CITES are, it's a beginning. There's no free lunch.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Oh well maybe there ain't no free lunch in West Paris, Maine ...but most cities have some sort of free lunch programs for the less fortunate.

He in me town Rev. Jim runs a junk store to raise funds to support his Free Lunch program... Mon. Wed. and Fri. ~ noon till 2:30 pm

blessings
Padma

PS, ya me know, me can be a smart ass.

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Thanks Laurent, I'll have a look around "theoildrum" and report back what results (if any) come about.





http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/nkforst ... _book.html

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nigel

http://www.theluthierblog.com

This thread reminds me of a comment made by Jim Freeman many years ago; Jim was the "outdoors" columnist for the San Francisco Chronicle for about 40 years. He was talking about fishing small streams for mostly small trout; this in an age when big fish and numbers were the measuring stick for so many anglers.
Jim made the remark, "Quality trout fishing is a state of mind, not a heavy creel."
I think "conservation" is likewise a state of mind; it can't necessarily be measured. Do your best to be be as environmentally responsible as you can.
Thanks for the post (and all the comments); I think we all need to be reminded now and then...
pvg

Yes, quite.


http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/nkforst ... _book.html

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nigel

http://www.theluthierblog.com