Official Luthiers Forum!

Hello! I am new to the forum so howdy.

I live in Maine , and round this time of year you start to think of projects to occupy yourself over the long upcoming winter.

I picked up a 1937 Epiphone triumph with issues. I am hoping someone with more knowledge than I could guide me along this journey.

I will state the issues, my hope and dreams. This will be a full restoration. Even though it was able to be strung up and played , it is far from the professional instrament made on w14th st nyc , in 1937.

1. I have allready removed all of the old degraed crumbling plastic binding whic i want to replace with wood. It took me about 4 hours using a sharp homemade chisel I made from a precision screwdriver. there were a few small chips that occured, but I saved the wood and glued them back into place .

2. The back is seperating

3. There is a humdity crack in the top

4. The 1937 model did not yet have a truss rod as Gibson held the patent. The neck has a bow when strung , and the fret board over the body is raised forming a bananna shaped board

5. The neck seems to be seperating the sligtest bit under the heel cap , but everwhere else on the neck looks tight . so i dont know if that is ok or not

6.It needs to be refretted.


This is what I am thinking ... I have already removed all the binding and polished all the metal hardware like tuners etc. It is sitting in a humidity controled environment as I write this . I think the first thing I should do is remove the back since it is allready coming up. and check the bracing . It looked fine through the f holes with a mirror and flashlight and there is no rattle but why not make sure by using a feeler guage. while I am in there seal with steam , glue and cleat the top crack.

should i then reset the neck? while i have the back off?

Also another major question
I have is I want to install a trussrod. The neck and fretboard over the body is raised off of the body. later models would have the adjusting end coming out of there and i think i want to do that too because the headstock is very nice and inlayed and i dont want it to be too busy with a big trussrod cover up there.

when it is all done i want to refinish it as well , but lets leave that until later.

I am sure other issues will arrise but can someone let me know if my thought process is sound and perhaps offer advise and guidance to the issues i have presented.

Thank you

here are a couple pictures

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here are a few more

an a few more

1) Bind with plastic.

2) you prolly shouldn't take the back off. You didn't offer any good reason to do that.

3) What is the shape of a banana?

4)First do no harm. Second, do no harm.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Well since the back is seperating allready i figured take it off , check the bracing and cleat the top crack.

bananna shape like it bows where the lower frets are higher then the middle but then the higher frets are also higher than the middle of the board.

any reason you suggest using pastic over wood to bind?

thank you

Not an expert in restoration, but agree with Howard. Key with any such old instrument is to keep as much of the original as possible. eg in case of bindings, suspect (please correct me if i am wrong) these may weel be a #cellilose' based binding - so if possible keep the original material and reuse wherever possible, and replace like for like. I would not take off more binding that is secure, just try and match what is there... This for me has nothing to do with value, but with the guitars history. That patina, the dings and dents and materials are the reason you and others like these old gems in teh first place, so I would just try and keep as original as possible, and gently do what is necessary to make it stable and playable. Good luck!

I do a fair bit of restoration work on historic instruments, ok not 20th century stuff mainly 19th and 18th century instruments, but the same rules apply.

As Howard said, first do no harm, next if a part still functions leave it alone, replace like with like, but do not try and make new parts look old (this is museum restoration where it should be obvious what is original and what is repair). Do as little as possible to bring the instrument to playable condition.

For the neck bend, just remove the fingerboard, it'll be hide glue so will come off with heat, heat the neck with a bending blanket and while hot clamp to a flat surface and leave to cool overnight, this should straighten it quite a bit.

On the finish, LEAVE IT ALONE, just hand buffif you must, but the patina of an old instrument cannot be recreated.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Considering you have already removed all the binding, it's vintage value is destroyed. Do as you will, but from what you have done already, what you propose and the questions you are asking, you do not have the facilities nor the knowledge to restore the instrument. Removing the back would make a disaster of your project as while it may be easy to remove, getting it back on is another matter entirely and best left to a skilled repair-person.

You already have some excellent advice here that should serve you very well.

I'll add that if your intent is to make this fine old guitar a player be sure that it needs a refret and not just a fret dress. Not having a truss rod will probably make a fret dress in the proper sense not very easy to do since you also mentioned that the neck bows under string tension.

I've restored and/or refretted a several 30's era archtops and when leveling the board I left some of the more prominent finger/player divots in the fretboard in keeping with what Colin suggested which is to do the minimum to make it functional. If you do have to pull frets much if not all of the chipping of the old, possibly BRW fretboard can be avoided simply by rubbing in a few drops of water, wetting the fretboard on both sides of the fret you want to heat prior to letting the fret nippers gently lift the fret simply by the act of closing them on the fret. Never pull frets, let them lift from using the proper tool and with the board moist/damp if chips happen they won't fly across the shop but stay in place like wet cardboard until you can press in place and glue.

The 30's era archtops that I have worked on did not need neck resets and I was advised that this is usually the case unlike the flat top acoustic world with vintage guitars.

The original patina of the hardware is desirable on vintage guitars so making it all shiny should not be the goal unless of course your goal is once again a player and not as accurate a restoration as possible.

If you get a chance I would love to see more pics of the entire guitar, please? Love this stuff!

Lots of good advice here.
re: binding removal- I have a similar-era Epiphone here ('waiting') and the binding is basically disintegrated, with the sections that are still 'sticking to the guitar' pitted and cracked. I think that even quite careful playing would result in more binding falling off. So, in Reed's case, perhaps removing the binding was not necessarily a bad thing.

That said, I agree 100% that the replacement binding should be plastic (and as close to the original in appearance as possible).

IMO, Any other work should be kept to the minimum, as mentioned above, and done with the proper techniques. My Epiphone 'project' is waiting until I'm capable of working on it-if I don't ever get around to it, then hopefully it will end up in the hands of a more skilled repair person.

I don't get too upset when folks 'mess up' old guitars that were basically cheap junk when they were made, but instruments like this Epiphone deserve a lot more respect.

Cheers
John

Thanks folks ! Allthough there is alot of negativity here as far as my skill or what not .

The binding was shot , no chance in saving it. And as far as vintage patina on tuners , this is my guitar and I think it looks dirty and lazy. If I wanted an investment grade collectable antique for my wall I would have gotten one, like I stated I was looking for a project for the upcoming cold maine winter .

I am not concerned with keeping this original for collectors purposes . While it would be nice , I am more concerned with playing this girl , I paid less than the cost of a new chinese epiphone for it so . I really hate plastic on acoustic guitars , but I am willing to overlook that because the binding channel has allready been routed and the plastic would be easier to fill.

I will post a picture of the back and then we will see how you feel about " buffing it out " lol The bright side is you can see all the layers of dye and finish , so as it will be easier to recreate .

Thank you for the advise on the neck, this is more of the conversation I would like to have . yes this is called a heat treatment right . Do you recomend removing the neck first or leaving it in place?

I would really like to install a truss rod , in this neck , wouldn't installing one negate the need for a heat treatment? if I ROUTE THE CHANNEL AT THE SAME DEPTH ,WOULDN"T THE STEEL THEN STRAITEN THE NECK OVER TIME? or should i do the heat treatment first and get her on it's way right off the bat?

the truss rod install is really the biggest thing that concerns me because it is one thing i have never done. also the small seperation of the neck at the heel, could this just be the guitar being super dry and once it sucks in some moisture it will swell shut? it had been in the desert for 25 years , and is now sitting at 55% humidity so perhaps this will fix itself and i will not have a bananna shape anymore either . I guess I will have a better assesment in a few weeks when it is done stabelizing it's mosture content through proper humidity, until then let's continue to discuss
this project .

Thnak you for all the intrest I really appreciate it!

Hi Reed (hopefully that's your name):

Sorry about the negativity we all mean well and in the past we have had some new posters who didn't know what they had and there was an automatic and sincere concern for these very cool old instruments. Clearly you share this respect for your guitar and if any of my comments turned you off please accept my sincere apology.

Thanks too for posting more pictures of your Triumph - much appreciated.

John's point about the binding was a good one and I too don't think that you necessarily did any harm by taking off binding that is falling off and seriously deteriorated anyway. If you hate plastic on acoustic guitars you are in good company in as much as many of us do too. If you have any interest in building a guitar at some point the experience that you gain and the hair that you lose from binding this one with wood will serve you well....

I would be curious to know how much bow or relief sets into the neck when strung with the strings that you will most likely use when this guitar is complete. Reason being is that if you can get away without a truss rod not only would that be easier to do but also less risky as well. No offense, not making reference to your inexperience either - even experienced builders and repair people consider risk in making a plan for repairing a guitar.

If you could get away with a refret, leveling the board with the frets pulled and taking care of the ski ramp fret board extension if this one is like many and this happened without pulling the fret board and milling a truss rod channel I would consider this less risky. But it will all depend on how the neck responds with strings on it and once it has been rehumidified.

Letting it acclimate in more reasonable humidity for a while, a couple weeks at least is a wise move and perhaps then as you suspect some of these issues will not be as they are now.

Anyway welcome to the OLF and it great to have you here!

Reed, most all the negativity is directed at folks that want to make a vintage instrument shiny again. Since you neither defined your skill level nor showed us photos that it was a "wreck", most all that give advice here about the term restoration is "Don't. Had you said you have an old Epi that is in sad shape, and asked for the advice we would have given entirely different answers.
Looks to me like a neck reset from the photos. That would contribute to the "hump" in the F/B at the extension support joint. If the neck from that point toward the nut is also bowed badly, you will have to remove the F/B and try to straighten the neck. Not a bad idea at that point to install a T/R.
If you want to take the back off, you will have to make a form that holds the ribs in the exact shape of the back. Then you will be able to remove the back, perform all the work, and reattach it after.
After you get it back together, you can bind it with anything you like, then sand/strip the finish off and refinish.

When I restore a vintage instrument (which is only occasionally) I "age" replacement parts so they look as original as I can get them. I don't know how the museum restoration aesthetic works, and I trust Colin is right about it. But this guitar isn't going into a museum. If I were doing it, I would be trying to match new parts to old.

When doing museum work, do you make replacement parts to the original standard of workmanship (i.e., leaving in saw marks, etc. if that is how it was originally made)? So when you say not to make it look old, what are we talking about? Color & patina? What else?

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

There are many old Harmony arch tops, almost al ofl which need restoration. If you want to learn to restore old arch top instruments, you might want to consider starting with one less valuable.

Regarding making the parts shiny so they don't look slovenly, and replacing the plastic binding with wood--one of the reason vintage guitars are valuable is that ones in original condition are rare. So many have been irrevocably modified to look new and to reflect the tastes of later time periods.

_________________
Tim Allen
"Never hurry, never rest."

Thanks everyone!

It has been sucking up moisture for a week now and already the top has taken back it's form , it has now become obvious that it was extremely dry. I am not rushing anything , it will sit for a few more weeks at least.

I wanted to post and keep everyone updated and show this picture. On the side where your arm would lay on the bass side lower bout of the side , the finish was just flaking away . So I picked at it a bit with my finger nail to check out the maple . I can't tell if the finish was dyed lacquor or paint with lacquor on top. The wood is dyed , obviously . The way it chipped up though it looks like dyed lacquor on top of the dyed wood . It is gorgeous old growth birds eye maple . It amazes me the old builders covered up the natural wood , today this guitar new would be a months wages at least , if you could even source wood this fine . It is making me rethink doing burst finish when it is refinished and go with a more transparent finish . I'm pretty sure I want a burst on the top but the back sides and neck I am not so sure yet . Anyway here is the picture of the old growth birds eye maple

This is a very interesting area of debate - and from my experience, even within the museam and antiquities environment there is no consensus as to the best approach. Best illustrated by a few examples... In the UK we have the National Trust, that owns historic buildings, gardens and artefacts on behalf of the 'nation' - the debate rages over 'restoration v renovation v conservation'...

To Conserve - basically stabalise item as is - to prevent further deterioration, but now NEW bits added or replaced

To Restore - to stabalise, to replace all broken/damaged parts with original as possible material, to 'recreate' item to as close as possible to how it would have been structurally and visably (caveat this would not include items such as finish patina etc - unless it was say necssary to remove a finish to stabalise parts etc.

To Renovate - to in effect, restore to a condition for USE either original use or new (eg in buildings case, home to offices, or public access rooms etc), new materials/methods could be used if deemed more appropriate, although traditional materials and methods a priority.

In both the restore and Renovate categories, the debate rages on about whether the 'new' or added' material should be 'blended in to create an original look' or simply left so its clear what is non original although material and technique are following the orginal - eg, They might replace a piece of broken sandstone with a new piece of the same material, but will leave the contrast between the new perpect square edges next to a wethered/worn round cornered piece, so everything is clear.

With instruments there is the added dimension that many owners want something playable - so we see nylon strings on old steel string instruments - Is this really any use? afterall the instrument is no longer providing a sound it was designed and crafted to produce? I am not sure I know the answer to that one, but I guess I would probably put on original strings, under no tension and hang it on the wall, yet I can understand the desire to breath at least some life back into these instruments, afterall it was music they were made for, not as wall hangings.... but that's where we will get quite a diverse and equally valid set of opinions

Would be very interested to hear what others think on this... and naturally it a lot could depend on the historic significance of the instrument in question.

Here are a few more pics of progress. I recieved a nice piece of spalted maple I will make the pickguard out of , and started the process of glueing the spots of seperation one at a time , the back is separating in 3 spots this is the first.

hide glue works good! I used a thinner mix forthe rip to back glue joint to allow for a bit extra time to clamp it up and to really soak into the wood fibers.

for the top crack that i am now going to seal, i added more crystals to the mix , to thicken it up. i want a quicker set because there will be no clamp. i will seal it using steam iron , then drop the hide glue into the sealed crack . here is a pic of the back to rip all sealed up tight.

nghad some energy left tonight , glue is curing so the guitar is sitting, i started work on the pickguard, here is the first rough cut

all structure issues have been addressed , here is the top crack repair. i used a steam iron and hide glue no cleat. it is tight and sealed now. i looked for cracks using a flashlight. no light shines through after the repair . i will now seperate the neck from the body and treat them as seperate projects until they are joined again in the future.

here is the shaped pickguard , it now needs to be bound , filled , and finished . i see some places charging over $200 for plastic . like i said I don't like plastic on acoustics! this is going to look boss d.j. , when it's done! now off to the goodwill to buy a cheap esspresso machine .. hope folks are still following along i will need help undoubtedly at some point !

After obsessing on this finish , in hopes of recreating the top sunburst, this is a french polished shellac. so that is how it will be refinished as well .