Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi all.

A customer of mine is inquiring about those tuners. They are worth quite a bit more than my standard ones (Schaller classical).

As anyone of you guys gave the friction resistant rollers a try? If so, what do you think? Worth the extra 175$?

Thanks!

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

I would say, if the customer is ready to pay the xtra 175, yes, worth it. It won't cost you more, and you'll have a satisfied customer.

But the tuners, I don't know them. And I'd also be curious to learn more about it.

Francis

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Francis Richer, Montréal
Les Guitares F&M Guitars

Well, I'm not so sure, that's why I'm asking. If he feels he paid too much for nothing, he will most certainly be pissed.

But thanks for your input nonetheless. (By the way, did you come see me at the Salon des métiers d'art? A bunch of André's students came and tried out all my demos.)

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

These are excellent machines, and I now use these as standard. Functionally, they are nearly equivalent to Rodgers and Alessi's. IMHO, they are the clear choice in the $250 USD range, and a significant step up from Sloane's or the Gotoh premium without the friction-resistant rollers.

Yes, I did! I came on the opening night. You were quite busy with some people, but I talked a lot with your father and tried everyone of your guitar. I was impressed by the projection of them. It was difficult to hear very well the sound, because of all that noise around, but I liked what I heard. I guess they'll get better when the spruce will age a bit. They were all fresh, did they?

Francis

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Francis Richer, Montréal
Les Guitares F&M Guitars

Call Serge Dejonge and ask him (he is in Chelsea) .. he is using them I heard from our mutual supplier of Gotoh stuff ...

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Thanks for the inputs guys. I'll check with Serge.




Too bad we couldn't talk! My demos are not very young. The youngest is a little more than a year old, the rest are at least two years old. But the acoustic properties of the show room were quite crappy. Especially that night; there was a constant 'roar' coming from the crowd that was making it very hard to hear them well.

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

Well, never mind guys. My customer just informed me that he's going with it anyway.

I'll let you know what I think once they arrive and they are installed.

Thanks again!

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

I have used the Gotoh Premiums with the Friction Resistant rollers, and they are very fine tuning machines. Priced pretty close to Sloanes or Gilberts, but are very smooth, and are also adjustable. Unfortunately, the only ones I like the look of are the matte finish ones. The others look a little tacky to me. Gilberts are the smoothest tuners I have ever used, Gotoh Premiums not withstanding, but the Gotoh's come in a close second. I have a set of Graff's that I am holding, for a guitar to be built later, and they also have the friction resistant roller, and feel extremely smooth, but they are nearly twice the price. I wish Gotoh would come out with a white or "ivoroid" roller with the friction resistant roller. Black is nice, but sometimes white is better. I'm not big on "aluminum" colored rollers, which is the only other option for friction resistant. I ordered my last ones from Shane, and there was a bit of a price break, if you don't mind the wait. Not a big break, but a few bucks a set.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

How do you price something like that? If a set of tuners are 175, you should get like 350 for adding them. That is how a retailer would price an accessory. But it is hard to justify to the client if they have been on the internet pricing tuners. Well that assumes of course that Gotoh won't let you have them for 90 bucks. If they do, you are covered.

Why an increase in any case? I don't think we should mix in retailing practices in simple maker-directly-to-user deals. I (partly) understand adding a premium for rare wood, that one needs to hoard and sit upon. Or very difficult to work wood.
But regular commercial tuners, you just buy and fit them with no extra work needed. The only extra should be the actual cost minus the cost of the standard tuners. The point is not to squeeze the lemon that much. Guitar players should be our friends, our halves in a symbiosis. Average folk is squeezed plenty enough by the banks, some retailers and so on. Oops we are getting political

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Build log

That is a standard misconception in craft circles. As you say, if you want to do stuff for free for others so that they will like you, then you can really do what you want about that kind of thing. Of course they could always pay you fairly because they want to support musical instrument making, and have you like them. And folks who don't ask for what something is worth are also hurting the craft in general by letting low prices out there. It's inevitable, I'm part of that problem also.

For a business you have to figure out how to price stuff. So for instance, I cut a lot of wood. My cost to do that is a lot less than what dealers charge, and they don't have what I can get. A lot of people in craft, or casual craft would just add in the cost. So long as they are getting paid for the part they themselves value, the building, they are fine with throwing in a lot of other stuff. It is like going half professional. But I deserve to get paid for the wood also, at market values. Whether people will pay that is a whole other thing. But it is what I should shoot for.

It isn't really true there is no additional work. There is this thread where a person is being asked to do something out of the ordinary and they have to do some research. I have some Schaller, Gotho and Gilbert tuners, I know if I grab a pair of those that they aren't getting lost in the mail, that the screw drivers I have fit, that the colours match my work, that I don't have to worry about how they hold up, at least no more than on any other guitar. One is taking on risks in doing stuff out of the ordinary. That is all pretty minor, but it's more than one does in a lot of standard retail situations.

The problem with the international banking crisis wasn't that banks pushed too hard on standard business practices, it was that they didn't. They sold people who couldn't afford to buy houses, mortgages that they couldn't carry in the long run. Then the system lied to the people who ended up holding the paper, and told them the borrowers were capable. What we didn't have was a problem with too much reality in the adherence to business principles.

What does this have to do with Gotoh Premium Tuners?

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Look Tom, I'm sure your input here is well motivated, but just as there is not one single way to make a guitar, there is not one single way to manage a business, and that includes defining sales prices. You sell your tuners the price you want, I'll sell mine the price I want.

There is really no place for discussion about this here. (Or at least, it was definitely not the purpose of my original post.)

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

Alain I put some of the Gotohs on a guitar for someone while we waited for some Rodgers to be made, well I've got the Rodgers now and were going to put them on his next guitar as he is more than happy with the Gotoh premium tuners. This guy is a full time player/teacher and the guitar is the tool of his trade and he's more than happy with them.

As Waddy said the matte one's are the ones to go for, they just look better.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I can't see paying the big bucks on classical tuners. Most high end tuners are BEAUTIFUL and I love them....don't get me wrong..but won't go there $$$$$ unless requested by a buyer. There are so many mid range tuners that are nice looking, accurate and will last the lifetime of a guitar if taken care of. I would make the buyer privy to available tuner options (high and low end). High end tuners will be there choice...not mine. I would also NEVER ask a client to pay more than cost + shipping for any set of tuners. If I were in the business of buying and selling tuners....that would be a different story.
My guitar costs are already figured in to the build itself with wood choice, options and style. I would, however, add any specific labor costs in installation of specialty tuners specifications...if different from the normal tuner spacing/placement.

Kent

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Wood Creations by Kent A. Bailey
EXCELLENCE IN SCULPTURE, CARVING, LUTHIER, ARCHITECTURAL MILLWORK AND DESIGN

http://www.kabart.com

I have used Gotoh Premium with the friction resistant rollers, regular Gotoh classical tuners, Sloane, Gilbert, and Schaller. Of the batch I prefer the Gotoh Premium for the guitars I plan on using myself for a while. Clients only notice any difference when holding the tuners in their hand and comparing the smoothness of the movement. I also like Gilberts a lot but they are a hard sell to many customers I guess due to the difference in how they look. When folks not want to pay for a tuner upgrade I provide Schallers and so far everyone is happy with them.

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GEO
perpetual beginner

I bought a set of Gotoh standard tuners for my first guitar. I refused to put them on it, and finally gave them away. The plates were so thin they couldn't hold their shape on their own. Cheap junk! At the same price point you can get Rubner tuners and they, while not at the top of the heap, are, at least, mechanically stable, and have a nice thick back plate. I have used them on several guitars, and they perform well. I have never used Schallers, but if, at the low price point I've seen, they are equivalent to Gotoh standard classical machines, I wouldn't put them on a guitar I was going to give to someone else. However, that's my choice. You get to do what you want to do.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars