Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Mon Jun 23, 2025 3:47 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Piezo pickup problems
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:27 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:15 pm
Posts: 1701
First name: Joey
Last Name: Holliday
City: Palmetto
State: Florida
Zip/Postal Code: 34221
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
I have installed fossilized walrus ivory nut and saddle with fossilized walrus ivory bridge pins as an upgrade over factory micarta on a Martin DC16 with Fishman Aura.

Fishman's Aura pickup is a great concept, but it relies completely on the piezo signal with no mic, like say a Taylor would have. Anyways, after I installed the FWI the tone of the guitar was greatly improved, glassy highs, more depth in the lows and it gets harmonics everywhere on the neck, almost to the point where it's annoying because sometimes you want to mute strings and instead you end up banging out harmonics instead. I think most could deal with that type of downside.

The real problem is when you plug it in, the bass dies, the mids are barely audible, and the highs are loud as ever. I know that bone has issues with non uniform density in saddles but I figured that by using the FWI (a first for me on any level) I would circumvent that issue. Plenty of recording artists use FWI.

I don't have a whole lot of experience with pickups/electronics, but this one works like this:
One signal input supplied by an under-saddle piezo.
On board EQ for the Piezo
6 digital images which use the supplied piezo signal to deliver 6 programmed images of well known studio mics
and a blender to mix your pickup with the 6 digital images if desired.

I have narrowed the problem to a couple possibilities, but before I make any adjustments to this expensive piece of FWI, I was hoping someone might have experienced difficulties with this or similar pickup systems.

Solution 1: I like a pretty tight fit for my saddles, the bass side is slightly tighter than the trebles. So basically just thin the saddle a bit for a looser fit. It makes sense to me since the tightness of the fit could inhibit vibration which the piezo relies on. My problem with this solution is that the soundboard relies on the same exact vibration/physics and it sounds great when unplugged. Maybe it is not contacting the piezo as well as it should be?

Solution 2: I hate to go back to micarta, so I'd rather try bone next. Just don't feel like carving up a bone saddle if I can resolve this issue some other way.

Solution 4: Piezo's are the devil, move to a mic, a sound-hole pickup or some combination of both.

Am I missing something? Is the saddle height compensation (action) also a factor? I could lower the bass a bit, but not very much without risking getting a buzz. On the high side, it's about as low as it can get.

Or is FWI known for this problem as bone is but it is not mentioned to keep people with piezo's listening when pitching the sale points? Any input is appreciated.

thanks,
Joey


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:19 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:21 am
Posts: 4914
Location: Central PA
First name: john
Last Name: hall
City: Hegins
State: pa
Zip/Postal Code: 17938
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I suspect you may not have a dead flat saddle and it isn't seating right . double check that . Also how tight was the saddle in the bridge ?

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:22 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:15 pm
Posts: 1701
First name: Joey
Last Name: Holliday
City: Palmetto
State: Florida
Zip/Postal Code: 34221
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
bluescreek wrote:
I suspect you may not have a dead flat saddle and it isn't seating right . double check that . Also how tight was the saddle in the bridge ?


It wasn't so tight that I had to force it in with 100 percent strength. But having said that, I just took the strings off, thinned the saddle to recheck that the bottom was perfectly flat. I just decided to go ahead and lower the saddle on the base side, which I did. I rechecked everything to be sure I get a good seat. All is good and I still have the same problem. I got slight improvement, but not even close to enough to be satisfied with the sound quality.

I was just reading a bit about amps. I am using a crappy amp designed for electric guitars, and I suppose that could be a part of the problem as well. I have a nice Ultrasound amp, but it's in New York at the moment. I'll have to check that possibility when I get there tomorrow.
thanks,
Joey


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:29 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:15 pm
Posts: 7527
First name: Ed
Last Name: Bond
City: Nanaimo
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Perhaps a foolish question but... what did it sound like plugged in before you changed the saddle? I'd guess you still have the old saddle so pretty easy to A/B to make sure it's not just the PU's inherent tone....


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:07 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:10 pm
Posts: 2764
First name: Tom
Last Name: West
State: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Joey: Meddling has a good point,and I just assumed it was good before you changed saddles. Not sure what you mean by 100% strength but sounds to me like the saddle is very tight. Think it should be a bit looser than you would have it for a set up with out UST.
Tom

_________________
A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:20 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 2561
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
The saddle can't be tight in the slot. It should slip in and out easily, but not rock in the slot.
The bottom of the saddle should be perfectly flat. I have a granite slab milled perfectly flat that I use for this purpose. Mark the bottom of the saddle with marker and sand only in one direction. It doesn;t hurt to double check.
Thebottom of the slot should be perfrectly flat as well.
Sometimes guitars have a flat slot until string tension pulls the bridge forward and flexes the bridge a little, making the bottom not flat under tension. A plastic sddle will flex with the bridge, a bone or ivory saddle won't.
Loosen the strings and tap accross the pickup with a screwdriver (lightly) and listen to how even the output is accross the saddle. Then tune the guitar up and recheck, it should sound the same. If not, the saddle slot is flexing.

_________________
Old growth, shmold growth!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:00 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:15 pm
Posts: 1701
First name: Joey
Last Name: Holliday
City: Palmetto
State: Florida
Zip/Postal Code: 34221
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
theguitarwhisperer wrote:
The saddle can't be tight in the slot. It should slip in and out easily, but not rock in the slot.
The bottom of the saddle should be perfectly flat. I have a granite slab milled perfectly flat that I use for this purpose. Mark the bottom of the saddle with marker and sand only in one direction. It doesn;t hurt to double check.
Thebottom of the slot should be perfrectly flat as well.
Sometimes guitars have a flat slot until string tension pulls the bridge forward and flexes the bridge a little, making the bottom not flat under tension. A plastic sddle will flex with the bridge, a bone or ivory saddle won't.
Loosen the strings and tap accross the pickup with a screwdriver (lightly) and listen to how even the output is accross the saddle. Then tune the guitar up and recheck, it should sound the same. If not, the saddle slot is flexing.


Great advise, thanks. It wasn't pickup up a signal towards the center and bass, because there was a tiny little piece of the bridge material hanging out preventing a good fit. I removed it with an exacto blade and now it sounds excellent with uniform sound. I must have looked in there 3 times before seeing it, it was tiny but just enough to throw a wrench into things.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 24 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com