Official Luthiers Forum!

For those of you who want quality guitars check this at Elderly
http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/20U-13149.htm
They have stooped to a new low.

Fred

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Fred Tellier
http://www.fetellierguitars.com
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/FE-Tellier-Guitars/163451547003866

It may cost more to ship than the guitar . Ohh this is something

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

And it needs a neck reset!?! This guitar should be, what, 6 or 7 years old max? If so, it gives a good idea of the quality of the brand...

How long as Esteban guitars been around?

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

I knew a guy (non-player thinking about trying to learn) that was considering buying one of those from the infomercial, and i actually had a helluva time convincing him not to. He's a smart guy really, just a little thick sometimes.

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If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. - Jack Handey

you haven't heard of "Estiban the famous guitar player" and his quality inexpensive instruments on late night tv? you're missing out

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p ... 608A1302A1

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If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. - Jack Handey

Yes I have. I've seen the infomercial. The first time I saw it it was 6 years ago. But I don't know if they have been around longer than that. If the guitar is 15 or 20 years old, than the need of a neck reset is not that bad. But it's way too soon for a 6 years old guitar (and it might be younger than that!).

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

I'm surprised it lasted that long

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If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. - Jack Handey

The neck is a flat butted joint with wooden dowel pins and a thick, gloppy finish holding it together....

If you want to see how it works, check out the pics of the "Western Steelstring Guitar Kit" over at Grizzly.com.....

except it the one I found at the thrift store used 3 pins.....

They are kinda fun if you are after a fun retop/learn repairs project and you can pick it up on the cheap/free.... Turns out the necks and fretboards are cut properly, so they actually play quite well once you get the neck joint sorted out and a properly made Spruce top on them......

Of course... "Just" doing a neckset and a retop will cure most ills on many a guitar......

Thanks

John

Young guitars not needing neck reset.. hmm... not so true ... last week I had a newer, (3 or 4 year old) dread made by that company famous for making dreads come in ... in order to get the action where the player wanted it, it either needed a neck reset or a bridge shave - as there was almost no saddle showing and the action up over .100 - so I did the latter, as the bridge was fairly thick, not wood (that was fun), and the owner wasnt prepared to drop half of what he just paid for it for a neck reset after owning it 4 days .....

bottom line ... it happens ....

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

True.... but in this case -- those flat butt pinned neck joints seem designed to self-destruct over time.... There isn't anything actually pulling the neck heel back into the body like on a bolt-on or a dovetail.... and the finish holds the entire thing together.....

Over time -- the finish stretches and the neck starts to rotate.... If you look at some of them -- you can actually see the poly finish at the neck joint junction starting to turn white from the stress..... Slice through the finish with a razor and the action increases about 1/8"......

In my case -- I added a couple bolts on re-assembly.. Solid as a rock now....

Thanks

There's an idea...structural finish!

I'm amazed at how cheaply some of the foreign instruments can be sold. Even in a factory setting, there has to be a minimum of 20 hours in even the most basic guitar. For a US factory, that is $1000 worth of labor...

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

Not even close .. Taylor is making guitars in about 10-11 hours (and that was five years ago) ..... their higher level models are about 18-20 ...

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

I think Taylor's below that now. Another factory I know of was doing them in eight as of four years ago. I'm betting that Godin is much lower; I've been told that Robert Godin is crazy about efficiency and they've outproduced the big three (combined) for years.

Not sure how PRS paid, but not even the engineers at Taylor or any other guitar company I know of get $50/hr. Most of the Labour is probably looking at a third of that or less.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Now, consider how much less time you would need if you were buying plywood components, already shaped and finish sanded........ Perhaps also with a spit coat of finish already applied on 1-side

How much time if you were buying components made with veneers that didn't need pore filling, levelling, sanding, and took finishes evenly?

How much time if you could spray finish in a clean room atmosphere so that you wouldn't have to do any levelling/sanding/finish rework? Just go straight from Spray to Buff?

Then.. Consider that People Time is NOT Machine Time or Waiting Time......

How much time does it take to make a glue joint..... About 20-seconds to apply glue, stick pieces together, and clamp.... Sure, you gotta wait 24 hours for the glue to dry... but YOU only worked for 20-seconds......

Personally, my most time consuming operation (Me-time) is finish... Finishing an instrument takes more Me-Hands-On work time than doing everything else on the whole instrument.....

Thanks

John

I had heard Martin was around 13 for their lower end models - I'm really surprised to hear that Taylor is as low as they are!

I know Collings is a good bit higher than 20, but they are a bit higher in the market as well.

$50 is about what I figured the average shop rate for PRS to be - including profit, salaries, overhead, etc. that's not just a salary based number. I don't think Martin is too far off of that...and most other production shops are probably pretty close to that as well. That's close to the normal shop rate for a typical machine shop as well.

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

Now that you guys have hijacked Fred's original thread quite successfully..... I'm going back to our buddy Esteban...

Actually, we all owe Esteban a sincere thank you... With his constant barrage of late night commercials that offered both the guitar and his instructional DVD set he probably got a significant quantity of new folks introduced to the guitar who most likely wouldn't have done so if the instrument original cost was sufficiently more. He had a smooth selling line and with his black hat and inch-long fingernails, I'm sure that he dazzled more than a few.

All of those customers are hopefully now looking for an upgrade to the plywood guitar that they bought and found so hard to play.....

That's why we should applaud the ones we see for sale at Elderly or even laying out on the trash can.... they are new prospective customers that we need to take advantage of....

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Peter

I've had the privilege of working on some of Esteban's guitars, his personal high end classicals and also his "infommercial specials". He gets maintained and tweaked right before his pitch shows.

The man is a phenomenal player, and a great guy to boot, and has a very inspiring personal story.

In addition to buying his guitar you get a whole load of instructional DVD's.

Yes, the guitars are cheap, no doubt, but Esteban IS getting LOTS of people, young and old, interested in playing the guitar, and a lot of them go on to buy nicer instruments down the road.

In real life, the fingernails are even creepier!

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Old growth, shmold growth!

It doesn't take long in the U.S. or Canada to hit $50/hour once you throw in burdens and overhead, and profit for that matter.

Honestly, I never would have gotten (back) into building guitars if it wasn't for Esteban....

Found this one at a thrift store... I tried to have it set up professionally.... They basically wouldn't do it -- the guitar was so out of whack....



I decided to tackle it myself..... and the rest is history.

Shamefully, it doesn't say "Esteban" on the Label... but I have it on good authority that it came with an "Authentic" Esteban Package from QVC....

Thanks

I wish I knew some budget numbers for Chinese factories, that would make it really interesting, but here's what I know of some North American operations:

Godin made around 250,000 guitars in one year a few years back, all of them 100% manufactured in Quebec. Some of those instruments retailed for less than $200 and even the solid tops can be had for ~300 retail. Add in shipping, markup, materials, and profit and you're either looking at a solid-top build in well under three hours or a labour rate far under $50. Godin is an absurdly efficient operation, though, so the truth is somewhere in the middle.

The other factory I know specs on, when I was in the loop, was putting together spruce top acoustics (African mahogany necks, solid rosewood b&s, abalone rosettes, bound ebony fingerboards, polyester finish) in 8.5 hours of labour for a wholesale price of $550. About half the efficiency of Godin, but still not too shabby. If you put in all costs and include profit then that probably hits that $50/hr number right on the head.

Taylor has roughly the same costs and labour time as the above company, but their wholesale is much higher.

It'd be really interesting to see the books and data on all the manufacturers...I wonder how much $ in materials and labour goes into an American Strat?

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Tony are you sure it wasn't a manufacturing boo boo? I have seen new guitars with their neck installed with an angle bad enough for it to need a neck reset, right out the shelf. In my book, a guitar that needs a neck reset after 3 or 4 years has a problem. Maybe it happens, but it's a bad thing when it does...

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

In 2006 the average Chinese salary was just over $2,000 per year. That's about 5% of what the average US Salary was. So, a shop rate of $50 per hour here is equivalent to about $2.50 per hour over there (plus the cost of shipping). It's tough to compete with $2.50 per hour.

Trev

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNA ... 50,00.html

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

The shop rate is mostly non-labour costs, though. Even assuming that labourers in guitar factories made $20/hr on average (I don't think they do), labour rates don't affect the other $30/hr of overhead. Chinese electricity, land, and materials aren't any cheaper than American electricity, land, and materials.

(Please, anyone responding, keep this talk about numbers and efficiency and don't pull politics into it. This is really interesting stuff so long as we keep it within the rules!)

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

I estimate that out of an estimated $50 per hour shop rate for a US guitar manufacturer, about $25 goes toward labor, $10 is profit, and $15 goes towards overhead (utilities, paying the bills, etc.). Not saying that everyone makes $50k in salary - but on average, including benefits, I bet that number comes out to about $40-$50k ($20 to $25/hr) on average.

The interesting thing is that there are much higher margins on the higher end instruments. In most cases, these instruments run thru the same processes as mid-range instruments. It's just fancier wood, and maybe some custom inlay. I've always been amazed at the massive markup that is placed on wood.

I think real estate would be much cheaper in China. I don't see how it could compare to US prices...if you only make $2.50 per hour, you certainly can't afford a $150,000 house. Furthermore, I bet their electric is a lot cheaper as well. They don't have to contend with an EPA & the costs of responsible power production, and much of their power comes from coal mined by people who make much less than the folks who mine coal over here. Additionally, check out some videos of chinese guitar factories...they don't even provide safety glasses in most cases.

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

I was amazed to find a quote that if you are willing to buy a seatainer worth of them -- you can get the "Cheapies" like the Rogue or my Burswood for $10.00 each FOB..... and you can get them on ebay for $0.99 + $30.00 shipping....

Think about how crazy that is.... that a set of coated strings costs more than the guitar itself..... But... there isn't any confusion about their true position in the market....

Thanks

John