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I am a beginner with a couple of ukes to date thinking of making a small steel string guitar. Ive had best success with a spanish style neck so would like to stick with that. I note that universally (it seems) steel strings are made with a dovetail joint and not a spanish style neck. I understand that the dovetail means the neck can be reset where a spanish heel cannot, but is a dovetail essential from a strength point of view? The spanish heel neck is a solid piece of wood and Im struggling to see why it could not be just as strong.

So far Ive gleaned from professional repairers that in practice most guitars never need/warrant a neck reset, and I'm thinking that with a substantial neck and fingerboard there would be scope for planing if the neck warped a bit.

I suspect with most conventions there is a very good reason why it is like it is, so would appreciate an explanation from the experts of why a spanish neck is only suitable for lower string tension.

Statistically I think your professional is correct that most guitars never need a re-set. Of course, 'most' guitars made are plywood pieces of junk that get thrown away when the action gets to be unplayable. Good guitars often get kept for decades and passed on. Those guitars will eventually need a neck re-set.

As far as I'm concerned there is no real reason for still doing a dovetail when a bolt-on works so well, sounds just as good and doesn't require major surgery when it needs to be re-set. There is really no excuse at all for building SS guitars with Spanish necks.

There are a few builders using this method . I for one am not a fan of it for steel strings . It does make resets impossible and you need to "slip the neck". There is also a good bit of mass in the Spanish method. You can use almost any connection system from a doweled butt joint , mortise and tenon to the dovetail. Dovetails are a simple joint and my favorite as I am a traditionalist . If you are comfortable with the Spanish foot , you won't get arrested for using it but you will make the saleability of it difficult .
If you make your own necks , consider a pure bolt on , that may make things easier for you

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Take a look at the book by Alex Willis - he uses a Spanish heel for SS guitars

I may try it one day

John

Yvonne: The problem is not so much which neck is the strongest. As a matter of fact it really does not have to do with the neck at all. What happens over time is that the heavy pull of the strings tends to cause slight distortion of the body of the guitar. The back will collapse ever so slight,the neck block will rotate and the peg-head will start to rise and then you will be looking at neck reset.The Spanish neck MAY give a SLIGHT advantage but the hassle of trying to reset the neck is major repair. Numerous things have been tried and I think the most promising looking is the use of truss rods from the top of the neck block to a lower section of the sides. I think some folks who check in here have tried this and maybe they could comment. Good luck with your project.
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

Another twist on a non traditional neck joint

http://www.sobellinstruments.com/Flatto ... fault.aspx

Sobell instruments are regarded as some of the best sounding guitars available and come with a heavy price tag wich also includes a lifetime guarantee.

J

It's been talked about a lot around here. You'll find a few threads that should help you decide what to do.

Here's one, for example.

viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=23494&hilit=spanish


John

Yep, I made a thread on it a while back too http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=27920

Came to the conclusion that I'd probably try it sometime, although I've been a little wary still, since getting the neck angle right on the first shot would be rather tricky. Even moreso given my freestanding workboard-less construction style, using precisely bent sides, tentellones to glue those to the top, and spool clamps to glue the back. At least my first one with bolt-on only took 3 passes of shaving the heel to get the angle right, but there's also the issue of getting the body shaped to match. The fingerboard extension doesn't lay flat, maybe 3/64" space under it at the soundhole edge. Fine to just spring down on this one, but for integral neck I would rather be able to flatten the whole neck to soundhole surface before gluing the FB with a long flat caul.

I'll probably do bolt-on again next time, but arch the upper transverse brace about 1/32" more and see if I can get a perfectly flat surface. Then do integral neck on the guitar after that. I could make a full workboard, but it's an awful lot of wood and work and storage space, and might still not come out quite right on the first shot or work for all my shapes without making several of them.

Long term box distortion is of course the biggest issue though. I'll definitely use the equivalent of a C shaped headblock to minimize distortion of the upper bout area (headblock extension under the fingerboard that butts to the upper transverse brace, and Spanish foot to spread the pull over a larger portion of the back). Probably an X brace in the lower bout of the back, maybe full asterisk, and ladder braces at the waist and upper bout.

Definitely would be more comfortable if I also included the headblock-to-tailblock rods that some builders use, but I'd really rather not. I'd probably go with the style of Haans, who puts two of them that go off to the sides of the soundhole so they're not being visibly ugly in there, as well as forming a nice sturdy triangle. But it would still be ugly looking from an angle, and make brace shaving through the soundhole more difficult, and add more weight at the tail for their anchor blocks, and more work of course. I think I'd just stick with bolt-on before bothering with those.

Well many thanks to those who have taken the trouble to reply to such a newbie questino. I didnt realise the answers would be so complex but should have guessed ...

I have the Alex Willis book which is probably why I got confused in the first place. I like the look of the Sobell guitars, clearly a tried and tested solution. What should have been obvious to me was that it is not the stiffness or strength of the neck and neck block but the whole structure that counts. I had not realised that the body was subject to such stresses. I think I may go for a spanish heel with additional bracing in the upper bout butting the neck block and see where that gets me. As this guitar will be for myself I dont have to worry about what a customer thinks. Anyway I may change my mind after listening to Charles Fox when I attend his course in a week or so.

As for bolt on necks, I tried doing one using threaded inserts and made a huge mess of it. I think there is more to it than meets the eye via Youtube! I found getting the neck face to match the body without any gap very hard to do.

thanks again chaps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-uILpnd ... r_embedded

You may want to look at this, it isn't Spanish heel buy it demonstrates that the bolt on type neck needn't be difficult

John