Official Luthiers Forum!

What are the pros and cons of a long saddle vs a short saddle? Does it change the tone in any way if using one vs the other?

Appreciate your thoughts.

_________________
Formerly known as Adaboy.......

If you would like some very strong opinions on this one I suggest you try The Unoffical Martin Guitar Forum. Not sure myself, have never done the long saddle thing and don't intend to in the near future.
Tom

_________________
A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

_________________
"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."

The good thing about long saddles is that they look nice.
Tom

_________________
A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

yes they look nice but they weaken the bridge because of the through slot.

Brent

And if the saddle is glued in place......???
Tom

_________________
A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

I decided to use long saddles after I saw dozens of them that were still original, on guitars almost 80 years old, and that also happened to be some of the best sounding guitars I'd ever played.

_________________
"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."

Years ago the long saddle was used due to easy production,a jig on the table saw ,one cut ,slot done. I think they are weaker then drop in saddles but then lots of saddles are glued in and this restores strength and gives better sound transmission in my mind. Not sure how much.After you do your saddle set up and glue your saddle in,you say a prayer to the guitar gods hoping you don't have to work on the saddle in the near future.Again they do look nice,but I'm sure that most old guitars that are well built will sound good no matter what the saddle. Think I'll stick to a wide drop in.
Tom

_________________
A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

After reading a nice thread on the UMGF about this topic (thanks Martin), it appears there is the old style long saddle that is cut with a table saw (and the saddle can slide sideways out of the slot) and a newer style long saddle that is recessed and cut with a router that won't let the saddle slide sideways. Seems the old style must be glued in and you have your choice on the new style. Some prefer glued in saddles while others prefer not to glue. Some use hide glue for glueing saddles (especially on vintage guitars as this replicates the original install) while some prefer CA. Seems everyone is an advocate of getting a nice and tight fit irregardless if glueing or not.

Interesting to read discussions on how the depth of the slot gives more wood tone (shallower slot) or bone tone (deeper slot with a brighter sound).

_________________
Formerly known as Adaboy.......

No saddle should fit so poorly that it would slide out. Saddles should be, what I would call, a light press fit. No sliding and no tilting, and friction going in and out, but not so much that you can't remove it with your fingers. Sort if like a well fitting guitar case.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

A saddle glued in with hide glue won't be that difficult to remove.

I finished a guitar last year that has a long saddle slot cut with a router. I fit the saddle to the slot, snug fit, and dropped it in. no glue. no problems so far. sounds good, too.

_________________
"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."

"A saddle glued in with hide glue won't be that difficult to remove."

Well, maybe not, but a lot more difficult than one that's not. Usually, I end up destroying or damaging glued-in saddles.

Until there's some concrete evidence that long saddles are superior -- and there are several reasons (mentioned above) that they're clearly inferior -- I'll stick with drop-ins except for historical repros.

Rick

I'm a little unclear why there is a subtle hostility toward long saddles, and why the old vintage glued-in variety even came up. I always assume "long saddle" nowadays means a long saddle that is dropped into a routed out slot. am I mistaken?

i'm no expert, but it seems to me the very old martins were glued in, but with a routed long saddle, they no longer need to be glued. doesn't Mario include 2 saddles with his guitars that can easily be swapped out?

will my dropped-in long saddle eventually fail? was I wrong to recommend it to Darryl in the first place?

_________________
"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."

I don't think anyone can tell you if any given long saddle will fail but statistically they are more likely to cause the bridge to crack in front of the saddle. Gluing the saddle may help, I really don't know, though it is the standard for long (or through) saddles. Gluing definitely makes action adjustment more of a problem no matter which glue is used.

I have to admit that I like the looks of them! I have made a few with glued-in end pieces and a drop-in center section. Probably not as durable as a routed drop-in slot but perhaps better than a true through saddle. Certainly easier to pull the saddle for action adjustments or under-saddle pickup installation!

Mario uses a through saddle, and I'd bet he wouldn't if he felt there was any disadvantage from a repairability standpoint.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Martin: I'm not sure there is a right or wrong way to do most of these things with guitars.Lots of folks do things a multitude of ways different from the next fellow and great guitars are make in the end. But,we all have our biases and ideas and I think and hope that's what this forum is all about. I'm sure Darryl can look at the discussion and make his own judgement as to what he wants to do.
Tom

_________________
A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

If I understand correctly (and please correct me if I don't), the old style long saddle was cut on a table saw and if it weren't glued in place, the saddle could be slid out sideways (depth of slot didn't go down below the wings of the bridge). And modern long saddles are cut with a router and the depth of the slot is below the wings of the bridge so the saddle could NOT be slid out to the side (like Martin has pictured above). This seems an improvement to me as there is some wood on the sides of the slot to help support it......though I would glue the saddle in place on either design to help prevent a bridge split.

_________________
Formerly known as Adaboy.......

Great, now I'm really confused.

_________________
"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."