Official Luthiers Forum!

A contact in the US recently sent me some info in regards to the Lacey Act. I'd never heard of it (probably because it mainly seems to concern US importers) but it appears to cover anyone in the US who imports wood products in any form. It also seems like it is something that would be virtually impossible to abide by. They appear to want to know the chain of origin for ever piece of wood material all the way back to harvest on any product being imported into the US.

I'm just wondering what effect if any this Act is having on small builders like us. From what I have read (which isn't much) it seems like they are more concerned with large importers. As a Canadian builder I don't think it has much affect on me directly, but could possibly on US customers who import my guitars.

If there is anyone out there who has some first had experience in regards to this Act I'd be interested to hear it.

Here are a few links in regards to the Lacey Act - I have not yet read everything contained in these links

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/plant_health/ ... ndex.shtml
http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/trade/trade_ ... ey_act.xml
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/plant_health/ ... onform.pdf
http://www.illegal-logging.info/uploads ... tJan10.pdf
http://guitar.suite101.com/article.cfm/ ... -lacey-act

Thanks

Josh

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Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
https://www.facebook.com/canadianluthiersupply?ref=hl
House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com

Grumpy Mario alerted me to all of this a few weeks ago. I think this all became real at the beginning of last month (and although it was April fools this is no joke! (sorry...))

So I called Washington DC and discussed this issue a bit with one of the contacts that were listed on one of the websites. The crux is this:
* They are concerned with shipments in excess of $2500
* They CAN request "chain of command" proof
* My thoughts are that it may not apply to wood purchases (yet) as they can be kept below $2500, but could be an issue for the finished guitar
* It will likely create more paperwork for all of us, Mario suggested that I offer "chain of command" evidence with my shipments (and I may start to do that)
* There are no forms to fill out so a format has not been presented to help one comply

Anyway, it will be interesting to see how this pans out. In any event it is not going to accomplish what they I hoping I think but I don't think that CITIES does either.

Shane

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Canada

Thanks for this info Josh.

I'll be looking into this closely.

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

Hey Shane,

Thanks for the additional info. You said there is no form to fill out but I think that is what this might be.
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/plant_health/ ... onform.pdf

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Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
https://www.facebook.com/canadianluthiersupply?ref=hl
House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com

I think the APHIS form is for importing into the USA. It is irrelevant in Canada. Canada may have similar protections, but the Lacey Act is only for import into the USA. I guess in theory if someone in the USA purchases a guitar (or parts) to be imported into the USA they may be regulated by Lacey, but that does not seem really practical. Imports will also require customs declaration.

The Lacey Act is confusing but this is needed to weed out the unscrupulous suppliers. Buy from know and trusted sources. Also import carefully. Another part of this is in the US if you import , you need to post a $10,000 bond. Use reputable importers and customs brokers. It isn't easy

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Well stated and succinct Todd!

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

Just to follow up on this thread from last week. I heard this past Friday of a Canadian builder who this past week was shipping guitars to the US and had them held by UPS until he filled out the Lacey forms. So now the fun begins...

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Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
https://www.facebook.com/canadianluthiersupply?ref=hl
House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com

The Lacey Act, even if purely conceived, will quickly degenerate into another means by which authority can be arbitrarily wielded and applied, if indeed it wasn't designed for that very purpose. When legislators place an unrealistic responsibility on the population to research their purchases, the correct response should be to simply ignore them. That, and ONLY that, will reveal the foolishness of idealism.

Without the political will or control of the means of enforcement, law is idealism and only like-minded idealists will follow it.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

I participated in a seminar that NAMM sponsored and ran, and they had officials from this and that agency, and a high paid NY lawyer there to decipher it all and present it back to us in common language. It is total lunacy! There is no minimum size or amount of wood specified, nor is there a hard wording as to what constitutes "illegal". So conceivably, we could lose an instrument, be fined, or land in prison for something as insignificant as a ebony bridge pin. If a shipment of ebony to a pin manufacturer turn out to be found illegal, they could go through that manufacturers records and see who purchased products made of that ebony, and work their way down the line, all the way to the owner of the guitar. And all it takes to be illegal is that the farmer who cut the tree didn't pay his taxes on time. Don't know what all countries have for laws, but we have 1 to 5 years to submit our taxes, so if the farmer's country is like this, it could take 5 years for his little tree to be deemed illegal. And oh, by the way, there's no statute of limitation on time, because we all are supposed to know the source. Crazy, eh?? If Shane cheated on his taxes or stumpage fees 5 years ago, everything he's sold since 2005 is "illegal", and not for only him, but for us, and for guitars' owners.

Basically, the law is so vague that everyone with wood products in their possession(hardwood floors, furniture, little do-dads, everything) can now think of themselves as criminals, as there's no way that every piece of wood in the world can be accounted for to the point where we can know that the cutter, logger, miller, supplier, re-seller, etc, etc, etc... have all paid their taxes and everyone's paperwork is in shape and correct.

Congratulations! Every American is now a felon.

Fortunately, it is up to the US Gub'mint to prove the trail and prove it is illegal, and it's very doubtful they would pick on a small end user, and losing just one case would effectively nullify the law as it is written. But if anyone has a bone to pick with anyone else, this law has the potential for massive abuse.

Meantime, let's hope no terrorists are sneaking through Customs with a dirty nuke bomb while all the officials are busy trying to determine if these bridge pins on our guitars are ebony or plastic...

1. Yes, they are serious
2. No, they don't care about us -- it isn't personal.. It isn't about Guitars or whatever.. It's about "Illegal" trade of endangered species...
3. No, it doesn't apply only to things over $2,500 -- it applies to everything... Ask the local Aquarium store if you are curious...
4. No, this isn't new -- it has been around for a LONG time

If you want to know something about the Lacey act and what you need to do -- Go over to the local Aquarium store... Ask them about it... They probably have in-depth knowledge and can produce paperwork as needed...

Exotic pet stores are a second source of good info

Orchid clubs and sellers have been also getting quite knowledgeable over the last 5-10 years.

I bet that several of these groups have been putting tutorials and FAQ's about what we need to know to be Lacey compliant... Just cross off the word "Hamster" or "Fish" and write in the word "Mahogany".. Some stuff obviously won't apply -- like growing your own BRW from cultivated seed up in Indiana...

My guess is that we need to start asking vendors for a copy of the paperwork when we buy -- so that we have some evidence of papertrail when the question comes up... and the question will come up...

It will take a little time, but soon -- the vendors will be familiar enough and have the info they need...

Oak, Maple, and Poplar are sounding like better and better "Tonewood" choices every day... Aren't they?

Thanks

John

An example a few years ago was in the butterfly trade. Three dealers were very actively importing illegally from Mexico, as well as collecting endangered species from USA parks for sale. Mexico had always been strong in insisting that the USA enforce its Lacey Act relative to Mexican wildlife. These three each got 2-3 years in federal prison, although I do not know if they ever served it. Fish and Wildlife got the sales records, showed up on the door steps of the dealers' customers, and confiscated all of the illegal specimens. In this instance, Fish and Wildlife was very considerate, in that they only confiscated the itemized illegal specimens. They were within their rights to confiscate entire collections and put the owners through the hastle of trying to recover specimens that they could prove were not illegal.

I agree with the advice to request your suppliers for documentation.

Actually, this time, they are targeting guitars. Some zealots wondered who was buying all that rosewood they're cutting in Madagascar, and, I quote "the first two pages of hits on Google were -all- about guitars". So, that's how the tree huggers did their research.

Yes, the law's been around for a while, and yes, pet shops have had to know this stuff, too, but now the tree huggers are after -us-. Little fish don't live for centuries, and they have a way of replicating themselves while in captivity, but we use woods that are centuries-old at times. And now I have to list each-and-every-species of wood used in any instrument I ship south of the 49th, by species(scientific name) and country of harvest. "unknown" is not acceptable and they will not let it through. So, now we guess.... and god help me and my client if I'm wrong on the guess. I don't build anything that will ship under the $2500 cap, so everything I send will need a bunch of paperwork, which takes time, effort, and in the end, it's the clients who will be paying for it. And don't expect the couriers to do all the extra paperwork filing for free, either, so expect everything to rise in cost. What do I mean by "everything"? A wine bottle with a paper label needs to be declared. As does cork. A rubber o-ring needs to be declared(rubber = plant material). Yes, individually, these items are under the 2500 cap, but not for importers. You'll pay, not them. How many items enter the US every day? That's a mountain of extra paperwork. Someone has to do it, and someone has to pay that someone, and that payer will be YOU.

OK, First off, ALL OF MY WOOD IS SUPER LEGAL!!!! I only harvest and purchase wood that is run through government approved processes. Secondly, I have no other "outstanding legal issues" and lastly, when I discussed this particular issue with people in Washington DC, they indicated that indeed the Act does apply to ANY ITEM under the legislation they are only concentrating on shipments in excess of $2500 (At this value brokers are REQUIRED to be involved, unless you self broker but things do step up from a legal sense at this value). If some choose to ship in a manner that required a broker and the item was less than $2500 you would likely still need the paperwork. I ship by Canada Post/USPS and my shipments are almost always below the $2500 mark, so my products would be typically not be inspected through this process (that is want I was told). But once the guitar is constructed I would think that the builder would indeed want an inventory of all of the materials that they used in the build and some assurance that they acquired the materials from a reliable source. As Mario said, costs will be going up to address all of this.

Shane

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Canada

It's not just the 'tree-huggers' you have to contend with. The government wants it's tax money they lose from black market lumber, and they believe sale of such wood is used to fund terrorism. Which could explain why something so monumentaly impractical could be put in place...

I think you bring up a good point about country of origin...

Most of my "brace wood" is SPF 2x4 wood I pulled out of construction dumpsters...
A. Who knows where it came from (More than likely Canada...)
B. Who knows what species it is beyond Picea... Construction lumber currently isn't required to be listed that way... Makes me wonder how those guys do their paperwork... I have a couple 2x4's that are listed as "Ger, Fin, Lit, Swe, Nor" and about 5-other countries of origin.... 10 different countries listed on the same stamp on the same 2x4... How is this legal with respect to CITES... but there it is.. Pallets and pallets and pallets of them For sale in Lowes... They got them through Customs somehow...

Thanks

John

The problem with all of this is that, no matter where the burden of proof is _supposed_ to lie, the fact is it's up to you to prove you're innocent. That's the effect of that little 'should have known' clause. Yeah, sure, they need to have that so that some sleazy opperator can't wiggle through by just not asking the right questions.

And how about the BRW I bought back in 1974 or thereabouts? I got it from some guy, who got it from some other guy, who said it had been in his barn for 25 years. Naturally I, KNOWING that the Lacey Act was going to be extended to plant products, was careful to ascertain that it had not, in fact, been smuggled in back in 1949, when I was just a wee tyke. I also got all the CITES paperwork too...

Not

Of course it's a silly law. The problem is that the trouble they can make for the likes of us, and the expense of defending ourselves, is far from silly. You can also question how much of an effect it's going to have in the real world, even if it's enforced perfectly.

OK, First off, ALL OF MY WOOD IS SUPER LEGAL!!!!


LOL!

I only used you in my example because everyone here knows you, bud. Sorry, didn't mean to make it seem otherwise! As one of the very few "from the stump to the final product" producers of tonewoods, Shane's the safest, most secure source of spruce we can have. Even the logs I cut myself were acquired from log yards, and who knows which logger cut them, and where, so I can't even be as sure of the wood I cut myself as I can be of Shane's....

Now, the 2500 limit applies only to having to file the paperwork with the shipment, but if a $100 top is illegal but shipped anyway because the shipper doesn't have to declare it, the end product will still be illegal. In other words, just because we don't have to fill paperwork on shipments under $2500, doesn't mean it's all legal. Not at all. It just means we don't have to file the paperwork....

New question... Are we supposed to declare the wood our cases are made of? I think so, as it's part of the product and not packaging(which is exempt). So, anyone know someone at whichever factory our case "makers" use?

There's a bit of a misunderstanding here about the $2500 thing. It is not a threshold for the declaration needed under the Lacey Act, or for enforcement of the Lacey Act. It's a threshold for "formal" and "informal" entry of goods. Imported goods with a value of $2500 or more must be formally "entered" (i.e., brought across the border and all appropriate forms submitted, which is more than Lacey Act forms) by either a licensed customs broker or the owner, or the purchaser. Goods valued at less than that (I think until recently it was $2000) can be informally entered, which means that someone else can carry them, and prior to the April 1, 2010 inception of the new Lacey Act, only a simple Customs declaration (the cards you fill out on an airplane) is needed.

The Lacey act applies to goods of any value, and they can require the declarations for goods of any value. It may be the current practice not to require this for goods informally entered. That would be a nice element of sanity but that is not a rule of the law. If the new Act were to be taken literally, you need to declare the species and origin and quantities of the plant material in your underwear and any pieces of paper you are carrying. More to the point of the law, if you are bringing in something worth $1000 that has illegally harvested material in it, you are breaking the law by bringing it in if you knew or should have known about the illegal stuff, and also breaking the law by not declaring everything, regardless of what you knew or should have known.

At least, that's how I read it.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I also talked to a customs broker , you now have to post a $10000 bond if you are bringing in any amount over the $2500 mark. This will put the little guy out in a big way.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

So if we all got together and brought in a pallet or two of IRW we would have to post a 10k bond?

Do you get that back at some point?

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I have a $5,000 order coming from India in the next few weeks.....I am glad to be in Canada on this one! If that bond was a requirement then it would indeed weed out those that are serious from those that are not. But I do need to post bonds for my forest license so the precident is not far away.

Anyway, the most unfortunate part of all of this is that it will just force people into "colourful accounting" of thier woods rather than deal with the issues of depleting forests in a more meaningful way within the countries where the forests exist. There are enough NGO's on the planet to work with third world (and first world in some cases) governments to start addressing the real issues with the view to saving forests. I was watching Discovery Channel a few days ago and it looks like Brazil is contempating another huge hydro electric project which would require flooding of a vast valley....we should be watching things like this.

Shane

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Canada

Its not a guitar sir .. thats a highly polished wood package to hold those strings at tension for shipping. So they will be ready to use when the customer gets it for his real guitar.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

I have a vague recollection that the broker that cleared my pallet of EIRW about 15 years ago provided the bond and services along with the broker's fee. It was a requirement of customs at the time. I am not sure if that part of the procedure is really changed with the Lacey Act, or if you just need additional paperwork for Lacey.

I'm not sure who is requiring the $10k bond? We have brought in a couple shipments of Honduras Mahogany in the last 6 months and I don't remember hearing of it. I'll ask our broker if this is something she takes care of on our behalf.

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Chris Oliver
Infinity Luthiers
...in the shop.

live every minute...