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Hi Folks,

I'm going to upgrade my old Performax 16/32 drum sander and want something that's going to give me backs/soundboards flat to within about 2 mil, down to about 75 mil thick. The Woodmaster says it'll go to 0" thickness, whereas the Grizzly says 1/8" minimum (not sure I believe that though). The Woodmaster is $2299 right now, whereas the Grizzly is $4950 - quite a big difference. Is the difference in performance really worth double the price?

Any experience, anecdotes, or opinions welcome.....I'm scratching my head as to which one to get....

Thanks,
Dave F.

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Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

Dave-
A carrier board will get around the minimum thickness thing, so I'd recommend making your decision based on other factors- that's a good chunk of cash in either case, so best to do lots of asking around- as you are doing!

Cheers
John

Thanks John...yep, I thought a carrier board would do the trick - a bit clunky, but it'll work for sure. The 16-32 I have right now is specified down to 1/8" I think, but I regularly go to 80 mil or lower.

I've read a lot about people making their own belt sander machines for a lot less money, but I really don't think I have the time to do that....unless someone can convince me otherwise. First though, I need to be convinced that a wide belt sander really is so much better than a large drum sander. As I see it, the advantages are a) less sandpaper clogging due to cooler working temperature, b) easier to change the grit, and c) more precise sanding (flatter across the width). I have no way to quantify any of these advantages though. Perhaps someone out there has the info I'm looking for?

Cheers,
Dave F.

_________________
Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

Dave-
I'd add to the list :
Longer paper life because there's more paper working- kinda the same reason that those bandsaw blades seem to usually last so long, compared to a cheap steel tablesaw blade (remember those?)- there are just a lot more teeth working.

Cheers
John

Hi Dave,
I don't know about the Grizzly GO527 but if it's anything like my grizzly bandsaw I would pass on it. That's just my opinion. I do have a Woodmaster 2675 and can vouch for it's quality. It's rugged, heavy, made in USA, dependable, and that is also my honest opinion.
All that being said, too bad you are so far away. I seriously need to make room and could give you a great deal on it.

René

I've got the Grizzly 18" Wide-belt. It will go as low as you want it to -- you can set up the stops to be where you want them and I have mine set at about 0.020". This machine is incredibly well-built and I would rank the quality as least as good as that found on my Minimax 20' bandsaw.

I also owned the Woodmaster before I went to the Grizzly and I owned a Performax 22-44 before that.

The only negative with the Woodmaster is that the velcro attachment system gives you a bit of a buffer. I found that with fine grits that dialing in an exact thickness could be a little more difficult. Basically, what you have to do is pass the piece thru several times at each height setting to make certain the drum head won't remove anymore material. You need to do this when you are within about 0.010" of your desired thickness and approach the correct thickness carefully. Despite this slight annoyance, the machine is still lightyears ahead of the Performax and very well-suited for lutherie work.

However, don't mistake the performance level of a drum sander and wide-belt. The difference is significant with the wide-belt being much more capable. If you have the money, go for the wide-belt even if it is a bit overkill. Wide-belts are awesome!!!

Of the Grizzly machines that I have and have used, shaper and a spindle sander, I would not spend that kind of money with them. Their stuff sort of works, and 5hp does not sound like enough, though I don't have one and Simon's recommendation sounds solid. I do have a woodmaster, and the velcro does present the issue mentioned, though it is a pretty easy work around when you get used to it. Wide belt sanders have a similar issue though, the platen is hard felt with a graphite sheet over it. The felt and graphite are both parts to keep around, they don't get replaced often, but when the time comes it is nice to have them. This has been the case with the wide belts that I have used, which is 2.

One advantage of a wide belt sander is the belt changes take less then a minute, though belts are not cheap. Personally I would shop for a used wide belt, cabinet shops are closing and they are around. CB tools has used stuff, I used to travel from SF to shop there. Considerations for wide belts are dust collection and compressor size, they do need a decent compressor behind them, and a good dust collector.

There was just a powermatic 25" wide belt on craigslist up this way, from the cabinet shop I once worked in. Not the right time for me, but I sure was thinking about it.
Enjoy the TAS,
Rob

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The thing to remember with Grizzly is that their quality varies with the product. You often get a whole lot for your money regardless -- but when you are spending under $1000 for a machine, don't expect miraculous workmanship. The Grizzly wide-belts are simply in an entirely different league from most of Grizzly's lower priced items. I have a Grizzly 12" parallelogram jointer and the machine works beautifully but the workmanship is quite rough but the price was under $2000. The Grizzly wide-belts are excellently built machines -- just to reiterate, the quality rivals my Minimax bandsaw. In other words, these are impressively built machines.

These smaller wide-belts were designed with luthiers in mind. They accept small pieces (lengthwise) and have double rollers positioned very close to the sanding head. There is not platen but rather a very industrial rubber drum with grooves for cooling. All the bearings are grease bearings. This machine is incredibly rugged. And I also second the recommendation for used machinery -- you can find some killer deals.

Great input guys Thanks!!

I looked on my local Craig's List and found a 4 year old Powermatic DDS-225 ($3500 new on Amazon). I reckon I can get it for $1500 cash. Anyone have any experience with this model. It's a 5HP dual-drum 25" wide model. The specs look good to me. What do you think?

Cheers,
Dave F.

_________________
Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

Dave,
I had a Woodmaster 18" drum sander that I used for a few years. Recently I upgraded to a 24" Belt Sander which is almost identical to the Grizzly 24" Widebelt Sander. Using the G0527 sander is what convinced me to switch a widebelt sander. The performance difference is night and day. As for sanding thickness I used a carrier board with my Woodmaster and could easily get down to .030 thickness. The problem with the drum sanders is that they are SLOW. With the widebelts they are fast. You will also find that digital readout on the Grizzly (which is the same function as mine) to work very well. Once you set the readout you can simply put in your size and the table with automatically adjust.
As for cost...I agree with you. How can one justify the widebelt that is almost 2 to 3 times the drum sanders? I guess the easy answer is craigslist or used. When I was looking I was able to find some used widebelts in the 3k range. I found mine for $1300 and that had to spend about $1k getting a 3 phase converter panel and all the electrical stuff. At the end $2300 was a steal. If spending the extra money won't break you financially then I know you will be very pleased with a widebelt.

On a side note I have used the Grizzly G0527 and the quality VERY good. I agree with others....I would not let the cheap Grizzly stuff be confused with the widebelt sanders.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Here is a picture of my sander after I repainted and fixed it up.

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Brad
Avon, OH

Thanks for the clarification on the Grizzly sander Simon, I know that different factories produce different machines for Grizzly, so it makes sense that the quality is different. Great score Brad, nice looking machine.
My woodmaster is only a 12" planer combo machine, not the dedicated drum sander, to emphasize the difference between a drum sander and a wide belt, most of the time I drive 15 minutes down the road to use the Powermatic wide belt at the shop where I used to work. Wide belts are much nicer to use, and worth the drive IMO. When the time comes for me to upgrade, I will shop for a used wide belt.
Rob

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Rob...I was using a Woodmaster 718 (assuming you have the 712). I could get good results but SLOW.

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Brad
Avon, OH

My reasons for taking the drive are are not a complaint about the quality of the Woodmaster 712 or the results, great machine, I purchased it many years ago primarily for mouldings. At the time I had a performax 16-32, and a 16" Jet planer, so I went with the 712 with an upgraded 3 phase motor. Woodmaster has an upgrade policy where they will buy the machine back if you want a bigger one, may do that some day, great company. I still make a window picture frame product that requires an 1/8" to get planed off a few boards, on the sander mode it takes forever, planer two passes done. Switching from planer to sander takes about 15 minutes, about the same as half the drive. So with the faster and a bit cleaner results of the wide belt, it is worth the ride. I like to visit my old co-workers as well, it was a tough job, but the guys are great.

Back on topic the wide belt that I can use the belt oscillates about an inch side to side, does not seem like much, but it does give a cleaner result as there are no sanding lines that I see on the drum sander. Does the Grizzly oscillate like that? It is a great feature.

The woodmaster making mouldings when I was in SF was about the easiest money I have ever made. Shove the sticks in, and walla, money coming out the other side. I had stereo headphones hearing protection hooked up the the television, I used to watch baseball making $100+ an hour. But that was about the only easy money I made.
Rob

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Yes, the Grizzly does oscillate as well (about 1 inch of side to side travel). I have had mine for a couple years now and I continue to be impressed with the engineering. Everything has been really well thought-out and I have had absolutely no problems at all.

I know that Grizzly is the importer of their machines but do you know who actually builds their widebelt machines?

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Brad
Avon, OH

I have this sander. I've only been using it for a week or so. In a different league from my old Delta 18/36; really no comparison. The Powermatic is heavily built, and can take 5 times as much in a pass as the Delta, while leaving a better surface using the same grit (so far only using the 80 grit that came on it). I decided that a serious drum sander could be the right compromise without going to a wide belt. There is a lot of area on the two big drums; the paper hasn't clogged, and it's wide enough to feed a guitar top or back at an angle, which makes a world of difference re filling the paper..


If you can get a good DDS-225 for that price, I'd advise you to do it.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Simon I have the same machine that gets used daily. I did have some issues with the motor which Grizzly promptly replaced twice. All seems well now and I really like this sander. One annoying problem that keeps cropping up is the digital scale. It will jump from the setting I punched in and lower another .010 by itself. Quite annoying if I don't catch it. Haven't had time to call Grizzly Tech Support yet.

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My experience with Grizzly tech and warranty service has been excellent, just wish I did not need to call them.

I have been enjoying this thread, as I said in my earlier post, I take the drive to visit with my former co workers, up until I found this forum and a renewed interest in lutherie, I have had no one to talk to about woodworking and tools, and since I don't know much about anything else, in a way I have been lonely, my wife is great, but not that interested in wide belts vs. drum sanders.
Rob

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