Official Luthiers Forum!

Several weeks ago while routing the binding channels I opened up some of my new LMI routing binding cutter kit bearings to use. I was disappointed to find out that the bearing that I wanted to use felt pretty gritty and did not turn freely... Upon closer inspection of the other 9 bearings (opening up the packages and trying them) 4 out of 10 bearings did not turn freely and in one case the bearing was nearly seized.....

As some of you know my shop is rather neat.... and always at 45ish% RH and about 74F. I'm not one to display stuff in tool racks instead favoring to keep most smaller things in drawers in the RH controlled shop. This has always been the case for me too.....

So I know that it was not any mishandling on my part but still I was kind of bummed because in general my level of satisfaction with things purchased from Stew-Mac and LMI has always been very high.

I called LMI and spoke with Chris and he was as always very helpful and instructed that I send the offending bearings back. My problem was though that if I had a 40% failure rate right out of the packages I wanted to know if this had happened to anyone else. Chris told me that I was the first to make this kind of complaint.

Anyway when I was asked if I wanted to send all 10 bearings back for replacement I indicated that I think that I would feel better if this is what I did since 4 failures out of 10 may leave me in a lurch the next time I want to use a different sized bearing if another one failed.

Chris was more that happy to help me out!

Today, about two weeks later I have 10 new bearings and they were sent to me at no charge.

Thank you LMI for super high quality customer service. The world is imperfect, I know that I certainly am, but the difference in my humble opinion between a good organization and a great organization is how much they are willing to be there for you if there is an issue. LMI is a great organization!

Great customer goes a long way towards keeping my business. I just had a good experience with Lee Valley today.

I had a crank-necked skew chisel that broke where the blade attaches to the shaft. It had been ground down too thin during manufacturing. I sent an email this morning to Lee Valley asking if I could return it since I bought it last year which way exceeds their return policy. I also sent some photos of the break with the email. I got a return email about 3 hours later and they are sending my a new chisel at no charge. I'll go out of my way to deal with folks like this because I know they'll take care of me if something isn't right.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Thanks for sharing this with us Hesh. It is nice to know that there is a company out there that treats its customers world class.

Hutch

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"After forty-nine years of violin building, I have decided that the search for a varnish is similar to the fox hunt. The fun is in the hunt."
Jack Batts Maker and Repairer of Fine Violins

Hi Hesh,
I purchased some Gotoh classical tuners from LMI. I had them for about a month and decided that I did not like the looks of them. I called LMI to inquire about an exchange. To make a long story short, my request was handled quickly, and to our mutual satisfaction. My Fustero tuners are probably on the way now. LMI is a great company to do business with! I agree with you!

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John Nowicki

I Cant say the same for StewMac though. A lightningfast shipping is a big plus, but when you buy gear for well over 1000USD and ask if they could get you a good deal and the answer is "if you get 3 or more of the same item there is a discount on that" - no exceptions !! I know they are a big business but still. I will probably switch to LMI after reading your post Hesh . .

Lars.

Ditto what Hesh said! LMI treats me better than my level of craftmanship deserves!

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http://www.presnallguitars.com

They also done me right....beyond what they should have! Its so nice to do business with a group of folks like that!!

Jeff

I will chime in that I also have had a number of over-the-top customer service experiences with LMI.
These guys are A-1!
And while we are on the topic, same goes for High Mountain Tonewood!
We are truly blessed to have such excellent people providing such excellent service....

I live in Reno, just over the border from California. If I order in the morning from LMI's website I usually get my stuff the next day by around 3:00. How cool is that!
Chris has always bent over backwards to make me happy.
Highly recommended!
Mikey

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The Biggest Little City, Nevada
www.hammondguitars.com
I love building guitars!

Lars buddy please don't hold it against Stew-Mac that they don't let customers pick their own prices.... How would the rest of us feel if we learned that you were able to dictate your own pricing with Stew-Mac? See what I mean my friend?

Stew-Mac has always had superb customer service with me too and I'll take it a step further and say that my hat is off to Stew-Mac for going to the trouble to bring us many of the products that they make available to us. If you consider that the entire market for some of these things is probably only a couple of hundred sales over time (years) and with production and development costs Stew-Mac's stuff seems rather under priced IMHO.

The real test though is how would it be if there was no Stew-Mac or LMI? Not good would be my answer and we would be forced to purchase from less well known sources that are not always brick and mortar business who plan on being around for the long haul.

Sorry you didn't get your special prices bro but I have to agree with Stew-Mac on this one and think that what they did, sticking with one price for all, was the right thing to do.

Oh yeah I nearly forgot one of the most important parts of the story with LMI.

My binding router set was purchased over 2 years ago AND I no longer have any receipts either. LMI just fixed it all anyway - pretty exceptional!

I hear you Hesh and I see your point. Allthough, Sweden is what I call a miniature communistic country, so I am well taught in the saying of one price for all. !! .
But I dont agree at all on that. ( with all due respect) Because, someone getting a file for 20 bucks and someone putting an order of 1700 USD is not the same I think. If I would go to any other of the vendors on the OLF I know for sure they would not only give me a great price because of the quantity I am buying for, they would most probably do even more. (and they have) !!! I dont want to name who I have just bought goods from lately but, All of them except for Stewmac have done way more then askt for. All of them but StewMac. ! So why then did I get so well treated by all the other GREAT vendors if one price for all is a fair motto ! America is based on business and competition is hugh so by only saying "we cant lower the price due to policy, but we can do this for you instead" thats is service and businessminds to me. Hell, I meen because of being "Swedish minded" as they are in my eyes I am now taking my business elsewhere. Loosing a good customer over 5-10% of 1700USD. aint good business to me atleast. Also, do a comparizon of their prices compared to almost any other and they are at times 30 % higher. You are right in that they have done lots for us in what they sell etc. But why would this meen 20-30 % overpriced ? whats the good in that for us ?. they do have an advantage in shipping-speed But thats it. and friendly customerservice. but I dont make any money on a friendly tone saying what policy says.
Hesh if someone comes to you, saying if i buy 3 guitars from you, can you then get me a good deal. ? do the "same for all policy" work then to ?

- I dont think that is policy, nor "same for all" ! allthough its what I call good service

All written with a smile
( incase someone missinterpret my words into being angry )

Lars

Lars-
I understand your point- somewhat.

The 'one price for all' policy has a lot to recommend it, though it is seldom applied. As you have found, it 'never hurts' to ask for a discount.

And, StewMac (and other suppliers) discount policies are not very rational - they should be discounting based on order size (as you wanted) not multiple items purchased, IMO. With modern warehousing, is there really any difference between throwing 3 identical or three different, sets of tuners into the order bin?

Off-topic:
When I started fixing and building stuff ('do-it-yourself' was just getting going) in the 1960s, it was very difficult to even get suppliers to sell anything to you as a 'retail' customer in Canada (and I assume the US was similar). This applied to plumbing, electrical, building supplies, etc. When they would sell to me as an individual, I was paying 30-50% (or more) than the tradesman in line beside me- no matter what the size of my order. This situation still remains in many establishments to this day. It was only the advent of the (much maligned) 'big box' stores like HomeDepot that really changed the competitive situation here and made decent prices for building materials more common.

Some quantity discounts make sense. For instance, if I buy 20 guitar tops from a supplier, I expect a discount since it is a lot less work to pack one shipment (of 20 tops) than 20 packages (each with one top). However, I don't think it is fair if a 'famous' builder pays less for his 20 tops than I do for mine.

Many instrument builders seem to feel that using their trade discount to buy is some sort of 'value added'. There was a discussion about this a few years ago- several well-known builders defended the practice of 100-200% markup on cases for customers using this argument. (A small upcharge to cover the time to order, etc would be fine, IMO).

So these discounts cut many ways.

Cheers
John

Lars- Please pm me with info on how to get a flat % discount from LMII !!

It's a good thing to recognize excellent service from suppliers.

However, I feel that the stories here from Hesh and Steve Smith sad commentary on the state of affairs these days.
When a supplier/retailer sells defective merchandise, should it really be an occasion for profuse thanks when that supplier agrees to replace the defective product?
First, the supplier should be checking the items they sell- everybody yaps about QC (Quality control) but few do much about it...
The seller is 100% at fault in these cases- and the situation should be made good at no cost to the purchaser. After all, as purchaser, you have already been inconvenienced (and perhaps your work flow interrupted) by the defective item- so you have paid an extra cost already.

Did the suppliers (LMII, LeeValley) in the situations described here cover the shipping charges involved in returning the defective product? Making the customer pay to return the product is a common tactic used to discourage complaints about defective merchandise. How many of us have decided to just throw something in the trash rather than trying to return it, because of the cost of postage (or even fuel to drive back to the store)?

I recently had to exchange an unused set of blade stiffeners at LeeValley. The clerk checked them and returned them to the shelf for immediate resale at the current catalog price. However, I was given credit (against more expensive stiffeners) for the 'old price' that I'd paid. Of course, the replacements were charged at the 'current price'.
They did accept them for exchange, so I guess I should 'get with the program' and join in the praise.


Cheers
John

. I feel they would prabably say the same as StewMac. I guess thats todays mentality !
Here´s a short list of what some of the good vendors on top of this page did recently with my orders. Compared to StewMac. !

I ordered 1 top from Uncle Bob " RC tonewood" and without even asking he wrote me an email saying I could get the top 10% of !!! I never even had the intention to ask for this as I was just getting a top. Now, that´s service. and thats what will make me return to Bob .
Shane at High mountain tonewoods made me save over a 100 USD on getting tops, purlings etc here. ( wont say how)
Vince at Pacific Coast had put in some beautiful extras in the package.
Stephen at Colonial gave me a price on what I am getting from him thats far beyond what I could ever hope for. and has treated me much more as a good friend then a customer.
Bruce at Notable woods went arms way to fix all I ordered to my full expectations he also threw in some extras and did me favors far over what would be called good customer service.
StewMac order was 1700 USD and the reply to my question. when I said I had bought 6 glues but different kinds were well if you order 6 of the same you have an discount on that glue. That compared to the above if to my miles apart in good service and business. And I do Agree with you John. If a company sends out bad items, why should we as buyers feel happy when the seller helps out. But stiull we do. ( atleast me) guess its because its becoming rare these days.

Lars.

In my case there was no charge for shipping and since I had sent photos of the defect they did not need the broken chisel back. So, no cost to me. There would really have been no reasonable way for them to check for this defect anyway before the sale.

John, I agree this is the way customer service should be but there are so many business' out there with poor customer service that I like to identify the ones that do a good job.

This contrasts with the major company I went to when I bought my Jet 10-20. They advertised what looked like a good deal but they screwed up the order so badly and made such a mess of things that I gave up on them and ordered the sander from someone else. To this day I will not shop at their stores or website because of that negative experience.

The way I look at it is anyone in business has the right to run their business however they want and I have the right to spend money there, or NOT, if I so choose.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Lmii;
Has always been professional to deal with.
So has Stew-Mac for me.
I like ordering from both because of their great & quick services.
Mike

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Mike Collins

Good- that's the way it should be. I got a replacement part from Grizzly a few years ago - sent free- in return for pics of the broken item.

The one I'm waiting for is the damaged (Laguna) bandsaw incident reported here some time back- supposedly they sent a replacement and said "keep the first one!"- now that's service!


Cheers
John

Man Lars my friend you are a cheaper bastage than I am....... And this remark coming from me would be even more cause for concern.....

Note the smiley faces please....

Seriously Lars if you respect your right to decide that the price is too high from a particular vendor does it not also make sense that vendors have the right to decide if the price of dealing with a particular customer is also too high?

Regarding if someone came to me and said that they wanted 3 guitars from me and as such they also wanted a discount here is what I would do: If I thought that I could deal with the person over time and wanted them as a client AND if I wanted to commit myself to the huge investment of time that 3 guitars would take me for just one client AND if it was not golf season AND if they could party with me in my shop and jam to some tunes AND the type of guitars that they appreciated and wanted did not make me puke AND all terms of sale and mutual expectations were a match I might consider entering into the deal. If some of these things didn't work out it's not a deal for me.

My point is Lars that I am not building and repairing guitars simply for the money - it's a passion for me and I spend my days Luthing.... because I love it beyond any other activity, except one.... that I have ever done. I also plan on doing this for the rest of my days so I am not keen to enter into any one-off deals for the sake of stinkin money that compromise my value proposition and/or reputation. If I apply this same thinking to Stew-Mac I can see why they did not accept your offer and let your business walk.

Remember if it's fair that we can walk if the price is wrong it's only fair too that a business can turn down bad business if they see it as bad for their business.

I respect you for trying to get a better price Lars but I sure don't agree with any of your assertions about Stew-Mac's pricing.

But I love ya anyway bro!!!

Allthough I never been called that before haha. I usually have no control over my money haha " when and if I have any"

I to make guitars out of passion ! Like drinking water it feels cant be without it. Well I did compare StewMac with most all other vendors. and I havent heard any of them complain over me being bad business though nor being cheap
I am simply saying they have a different approatch to business. and a better one I think.
Just for the record I did get the stuff from StewMac anyway . I needed it ! To love building guitars has nothing to do with wanting to spend more money than neccesary does it. also that 5-10% off I was askin for could have given me some more purflings .


Love back my friend. - you dust freak

Lars.

Yeah I am a dust freak that's for sure....