Official Luthiers Forum!

I wanted to start this thread for any who might be interested regarding safety in finishing. I've noticed over the past several years the too large number of fellow luthiers who have developed devastating illnesses an cancers. Many of whom have passed on at too young of an age! This may or may not have been discussed in here already but we cannot be reminded too much of the importance of protecting our eyes, lungs, digits, and skin. I personally believe that the use of volatile chemicals and chemical based finishes is the culprit that can kill!!! As mentioned in another thread by Kevin Gallagher who himself is even now fighting a tough fight (which I believe he will win because he has a winning attitude), proper attire, fresh air supply and ventilation, and covering all exposed skin is absolutely critical. I go to the extra extreme of using the same safety precautions that I use for chemical or oil based products, in spraying supposedly non toxic waterbornes.

It is IMO necessary to have (whenever possible) a separate room dedicated to spraying operations. When using things such as Nitro (deadly stuff in so many ways), you really want to have it separate from your common work environment during the entire period of spraying and "gas off". Regarding the spraying process it's critical to use a high volume explosion proof exhaust fan with the room set up for excellent filtered inflow and outflow. This fan should run for the entire time during the spraying process and for at least 2 hours after the process is complete. Afterward, I prefer if using such harsh products, to have a separate exhaust fan (IE bathroom exhaust) to constantly run for 100 - 150 hours during the gas off and curing time. (Not really necessary for waterbournes or oil finishes). As for attire, disposable HazMat overalls, nitrile gloves, and fresh air supply respiration is extremely important in my shop. Our skin is like a large sponge and will absorb chemicals and fumes just as effectively as if we're breathing it in. To prove this to you, cut up a fresh clove of garlic, and rub it onto the bottom of your feet. Within minutes you will taste the garlic in your mouth. On exposed skin these chemicals (even fumes) go straight into our blood stream and right to our liver! When the liver gets full of this junk it eventually accumulates into other areas of our body like our pancreas, kidneys, glands, etc. This not only opens the door to cancers and disease, it kicks it off the hinges. For fresh (filtered) air respiration I use a Triton Respirator http://woodworker.com/triton-power-respirator-mssu-131-858.asp?utm_source=google&utm_medium=feed to which an extension hose can be attached from outside the spray room. My shop is small 14-1/2' x 32' and served me well in my custom fine furniture business. In one corner of the shop I built a 6'x6' room dedicated to finishing operations. If your shop is too small to make a dedicated room, make a small shed outside the shop (est cost for an 8x8 about $750 not counting electric and ventilation equipment but your health and life are worth it!).

At any rate, it grieves me that so many good folks are destroying their health over the passion to build placing a few measly bucks over their own health, or simply out of lack of knowledge. Always remember, SAFETY FIRST, after that SAFETY FIRST. Then when you get all that worked out, SAFETY FIRST!!!!!

_________________
Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

Great thread Bill. I believe some of the worst problems happen when someone doesn't understand the finish they're using. I believe it's important to read, and understand the MSDS for each product you use. Some of that stuff looks like rocket science to me. My Dad's neighbor is an automotive paint salesman, who also teaches at a Community College. I have him advise me what precautions and PPE I should use.

Again, know what your dealing with.

My boss at my daytime job painted cars most of his life. He'd got parkinsons now. His Doctor believes it could have been caused by exposure to the chemicals in paint.

_________________
I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

Well, I'll tell you after 30+ years of cabinetmaking in shops where they sprayed without a spraybooth or had a spraybooth but offgassed the cabinets right next to the room I was in, I am hypersensitive to lacquer. When I gave it up and went into mandolin making, I had a separate room and respirator, but (call me a lucky fool) I sprayed spirit varnish into a window fan.
When I decided to go back to guitarmaking I realized I was going to have to use lacquer again, and last year I invested in a VG spray booth and all the explosion proof lighting and hookup. Cost a lot of $$$$ but I'm very happy I did it because I finally feel safe from both a health standpoint (although I have COPD) and from the possibility of blowing my wife and I to bits.
In addition I have a separate exhaust hood in my workroom to vent out CYA and other smelly stuff like Weldon 16, acetone, mineral spirits, etc.
Bill's advice is excellent and timely for those of you young whippersnappers that think finishing precautionary equipment is "down the road" as opposed to bandsaws, sanders, etc.

One safe finishing tip is to care for your respirator, the carbon filters are active, and left out at night, will absorb whatever is in the room and loose effectiveness when needed. Keep your respirator in a sealed container when not in use.

My old shop was next to a surf board making shop, the fiberglass resin is similar in stink to lacquer. Occasionally they would hire an older surf board maker, years working with foam and resin. A short talk with one of these guys was pretty convincing, lights on, nobody home, their brains were slow and damaged, but you could tell that they used to be intelligent from what they would eventually say, when the words could come out. Another was a buddy's mom who worked for decades in a hair salon, same thing, not the woman she once was.

I have sworn off nitro in favor of water based products, but I think it is time to take Bill's lead, and use the same precautions that I would for lacquer. I have been spraying into a box fan with a regular dust mask, can't smell anything, but the stuff does not have an odor. I have a 3 year old daughter now and I am 41, still have a lot of parenting to do, and I want it done right, so I best do it myself.

Thank you Kevin for reminding us of this, and Bill, very worthwhile thread.
Rob

_________________
http://shastaguitar.com/
http://www.kalimbakit.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/comfyfootgr ... ature=mhee
http://www.facebook.com/robert.renick.7

This might be a dumb question - but are there any dangers to French polishing shellac using alcohol, ie Everclear to mix it with ? Can I do this inside the house, with no issues ?

I too, worry about chemicals and the health of my family. I lost a family member a few years ago after she had spent a few decades in the clothing industry. The chemicals involved in making fabrics which go into the suits she helped make are just as bad as what you in find in paints.

_________________
It's this new idea from recent decades that everyone gets a participation award. - MUX

I take good safety precautions when FP'ing (though personally I hate to FP) by using a half face painters respirator, safety glasses, and nitrile gloves. Next to the waterbourne finishes, FP is one of the safest methods of finishing. Even more safe if you use EverClear rather than Denature Alcohol (DA). DA can blind you permanently if splashed in your eyes and will kill you if you drink it. It's deadly poison! If you use EverClear, you need not use a respirator at all but safety glasses and gloves are important. It'll burn like the dickens if splashed in your eyes, and if your hands are soaking it in long enough without gloves, you'll get a little giddy after a while since it's 100% pure grain alcohol.

Boiled linseed oil and boiled walnut oil are as safe as it gets but not advisable as a finish on a guitar.

_________________
Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

I don't think Everclear in French Polishing really presents any dangers unless you drink lots of it. Everclear is intended for consumption, afterall. The denatured alcohol is a different story, that stuff will kill you. Your fingertips will absorb whatever you're using into your system. I took Marshall Brune's FP class and he pointed out that after a while of working with the stuff, you can actually taste it in your mouth. Everclear is expensive, but I can't see why anyone would use denatured unless grain alcohol was impossible to acquire.

Shellac flakes are actually edible, too. So you're using Everclear, 100% olive oil and shellac flakes, it's all stuff you could eat (though I wouldn't recommend it). That's a pretty safe bet as long as you don't go spraying it in your eyes or drinking it down like it's water.

How toxic is epoxy? I was planning on trying an epoxy pore fill, I've only used it in pretty small amounts before.

_________________
______________________________
Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

Rule of thumb, if you can't eat or drink it safely, treat it like it can kill you! Because if you don't, with enough exposure over the years, it likely will. I have well over 3 decades of experience as a woodworker, a good portion of it as a pro with my own business. The reason I'm alive and healthy today is because I take this stuff seriously. Do I know everything there is to know about safety? I doubt it! But I'm a perpetual student of it just the same as woodwork or lutherie. Being diligent especially with safety and personal fitness, will give you a much better shot at a longer life in good health.

Oh yeah, epoxy, TOXIC!!! I use it to glue on the fretboard (West System) but that's about it. Gloves, Safety Glasses, and good ventilation are in order for sure.

_________________
Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

there was an interesting thread I noticed over at ANZLF the other day about a new epoxy which is nut/bean based and apparently 100% non-toxic.

heres the thread if anybody's interested http://www.anzlf.com/viewtopic.php?t=2810

and theres a link to the product if anyone wants a look http://www.ecopoxysystems.com/index.html.

Seems interesting enough that I may order the sample kit just to try it out. Could be a good alternative

Matt

I should add i know nothing about epoxy so I don't know if this could be a good alternative or not lol.

I'm much more wary of using epoxy after running across this thread the other day: http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=19669

Great thread, Bill. I'm kind of a safety freak. My current plan is to do all FP with Everclear, although after experiencing the burning arm, I may chicken out and switch to a brush-on, at least for back/sides. No sprays for me.

Outdoors with respirator for shell cutting.

And I'm trying to avoid buying a tablesaw or bandsaw, to give myself less options for chopping fingers off. Need those for playing
It's not that much more expensive buying precut materials anyway.

Hmmm EcoPoxy! I'm going to have to look at this stuff more intently. Looks like Dennis Leahy is already getting a sample. Dennis, let us know the results of your testing after you've done so if you're viewing this thread. I'm no big fan of Chemical Based epoxy either but I do use it on a very limited basis. Typically I'll glue and clamp a fretboard as the last task at night before leaving the shop. About 5 - 10 min 1 time per guitar. By the time I return to the shop the next day, all is well that ends in the well. Or something like that. In my brief study of the EcoPoxy, it looks like it could be a dog to remove a fretboard in the future in one piece if circumstances call for it but only testing will prove that one way or the other.

I'm not all knowing folks so everyone's input and ideas are invited especially more seasoned luthiers and woodworkers with the same mind for safety and self preservation. Ideas of things you do differently or would like to see discussed along this topic line are encouraged. It will be beneficial to us all.

_________________
Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

I hesitate to jump into a public forum on topics like this, because I am NOT an expert, but I do have some left over applicable knowledge from a past life. Please take my comments with a grain of salt.

Shellac is as safe a finish you will find. It is food-safe.The shellac flakes are used in food products, and coating medicine.

BUT!!!

The solvent could be an issue. Using Everclear should be very safe. There is a concern about starting a fire, or splashing in your eyes, but other than that, it's essentially safe.

Denatured alcohol, on the other hand, is essentially Everclear with some stuff added to it to make it either poisonous or too nasty to drink. One chemical they use is methyl alcohol. This is very bad for you. It can be breathed in. It can be absorbed through the skin. When it gets in your system, it is metabolized into toxic by products and you can end up blind or dead. As little as 12 ml can be toxic. But, like any poison, it and it's metabolites are only toxic in sufficient amounts. I don't believe bioaccumulation is a problem. That means that if your exposure is not enough to harm you, it is processed and passed by your system harmlessly. (In contrast, some toxins do accumulate in the body so repeated low doses add up over time.) But why risk it? If you have access to Everclear, there is no good reason to use DA for this purpose. Just FP with the EC and it'll be OK.

If I didn't have access to EC, I wouldn't freak out about DA. People are exposed to small quantities fueling their race cars, RC planes, camp stoves without suffering. But, I would certainly use gloves and goggles, and work in an area with good airflow. Basically, enough that I couldn't smell it. Also, ethyl alcohol (beer) keeps your liver busy, slowing down the conversion of the methanol into the really toxic stuff. So, I'd probably drink some beer while French polishing with DA. Sometimes, I drink beer when I'm not FPing just as a preventative measure to protect myself from accidental methanol exposure. It's good to be prepared. I don't know if a few beers is strong enough to make a difference, but I'll do it anyway. I might even drink beer when using Everclear too. Safety should be a habit. (By the way, if you follow all of my advice, it's probably a good idea to not FP and use power tools on the same day, or if you do, save the FP for last.)

The exposure to Everclear is not a significant concern if you tolerate the occasional beer or whiskey. Keep it out of your eyes and mouth, try keep it off your skin, don't work in a small closet and have plenty of fresh air, and you should be fine.

For any 12 steppers (that's steppers, not fretters), I don't know what to tell you. Personally, I wouldn't risk it. It's a slippery slope and too hard to climb back up.

Mike

_________________
Mike Lindstrom

_________________
Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

I have also implemented this discussion in another forum and below is a response from a person with first hand experience regarding the effects of chemical products in work and their dangers. I didn't ask him if I could post it here so I'll not mention his name or the forum but I feel his text is worthy of adding to this discussion.

"I too am one of those folks that adamantly proposes that safety in the shop should always be your concern, whether cutting wood, or finishing wood. I've been one of those guys that had some health issues arise as a result of constant exposure to finishes and solvents, and as an artist who has worked with toxic pure pigments in oil paints (barium, cobalt, cadmium, lead) and artist''s pastels. It's pretty serious stuff. I've written numerous posts about this in the past few years, some people agreed with me, some disagreed with me on safety issues. I'm going to put it out there.... you can read my advice, or you can ignore it. All I know is that I've put my thoughts on the subject out there.

Exposure to these toxins, whether through skin absorption or inhalation can be pretty bad stuff. I had a large antiques business and being the #1 man, I did all the work. I have more than 25 years of finishing and refinishing experience in traditional and some modern finishes. I'm so sensitive to the chemicals in spray finishes that I almost have to leave the building at school in spite of our spray booth and it venting the air. I feel as though I am suffocating at times. 25 years ago,, I didn't take it all too seriously. I do now.

Some of these chemicals can cause neurological damage, brain/cognitive disorders, ocular disorders, reproductive damage, kidney damage, and respiratory damage or failure. I sound like a pharmaceutical disclaimer don't I? Did I forget to mention death? I'd pretty much say most all would be true in my case, and none are easy to remedy. A lung lavage is not something you ever want to experience. Who has their lungs power washed? I never before knew what oxygen saturation levels meant and how they applied to me. On one occasion, the sprayed finishes had accumulated and so thoroughly coated my lungs that the lung lavage basically removed a film as thick as a dry cleaner's plastic garment bag from my lungs. That was the first 6 months, complete with portable oxygen, nebulizers, etc.. TMI, I know! All I did was spray the final varnish on about 15 gallery size oil paintings (1 session) for an upcoming art show. Admittedly I used nominal protection and a not so ventilated area, but it's what I had to work with, so I did it anyway. You know you're out there too!

You'll hear me say, somebody is spraying poison today.... and it really is poison. I don't think risking one's long term health over such a thing is sensible. I carefully monitor my exposure to such things, I avoid it all cost. All I can say is... be smart about it. Heed the warnings, review the MDS sheets, know your limitations. Safety is not a work around when it comes to finishing. And as always.... test your finishes on anything but your final project. "

There's another current topic in OLF regarding 'hazardous wood dust". This too is part of finishing and proper respiration, filtration, and evacuation is critical to our lungs as one of our brother OLF'ers found out the hard way last year and is still suffering the health and financial repercussions of it. I've been working wood for a lot of years and still learn new things every day as a perpetual student. Yes I even learn from some who are much younger than me with far less experience! We can never learn too much about how to protect our health, and should allow flexibility in our learning if we desire to live the longest, healthiest lives possible. That's my 2 cents, what's yours?

_________________
Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

Thanks for starting this thread Bill.

When I started building like many of you I was so very hell bent on building guitars or more correctly learning to build guitars that I let issues of safety take a back seat.....

In my first year I built 5 guitars and finished them all with rattle can nitro in my bathroom with only the non-explosion proof bathroom exhaust fan (40 CFM....) for ventilation.... I did wear a respirator but no hazmat clothes, gloves, eye protection etc.....

Somewhere around the time that I was spraying my 6th guitar someone on the OLF (I was new here so I can't remember who this was) made a post that I will never forget.

They spoke about the dangers of nitro and how even with proper safety precautions they did not completely trust that we knew all that we needed to know to safely use nitro. I remember this poster describing the white powder that gets everywhere when spraying nitro as the same substance that was used as propellant for the 16" shells of the battleship New Jersey..... Although all of this very much had my attention and I was already horrified at my pretty much total lack of respect for the toxicity of nitro what really got my attention was when this poster indicated that they were sick, very, very sick.....

The poster believed that the sickness was from exposure to nitro and went on to indicate that many of the recommended precautions were completely observed including the explosion proof fan, body, hand, and eye protection, a properly rated and maintained respirator, and of course precautions to protect others and pets too. But still they were pretty sick, can't remember for sure but it seemed life threatening by the "tone" of the post.

Needless to say #6 was the last guitar that I ever sprayed nitro in my bathroom to finish.

It seems that every year we hear that one of us is sick or continues to be dealing with a prior illness... This is the kind of thread that we can't see enough of and maybe, just maybe the folks who keep us honest when it comes to safety will one day save a few of us too.

Thanks again Bill.

Having a great deal of experience with applied finishes in factory settings, I would add that a typical industrial spray booth for part painting would be roughly 8' wide x 7' high x 8' deep. Air flows in sufficient volume inside such a booth so as to allow one side of the booth to be completely open. This will only happen when there is a sufficient pressure differential between the inside and the outside air. There are meters (called manometers) that measure this that are cheap, and simple.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#manometers/=6metbu Go to the middle of this page and look at "Compact Inclined-Scale Manometers" to see what I'm talking about. These things come as part of every commercial spray booth. You have two tubes. One goes inside your booth and one goes outside. They both read static pressure and the relative difference shows up by liquid in one direction or the other. These are the simplest things in the world and give VALUABLE information about how effective your booth is. When your filters get clogged the pressure differential increases.

The main point here is that a fan with a published capacity of 7200 cfm is required to do this in a room roughly the size outlined above. This assumes proper filters exist between the fan and the spray. If you use a smaller fan the room will still get cleared out but, when the flow is proper, fresh air will always be flowing past you and the material you are spraying will always be traveling away from you.

I'm building such a room in my new shop now. I have a 7200 cfm fan that has two speeds. The 7200 cfm speed will be used when spraying. There is also a 4500 cfm setting that I can switch to when the spraying is done and the parts are hung up to outgass.

We weren't meant to breathe this stuff. If we were then it would rain nitrocellulose lacquer and the Redwoods would be MUCH prettier.

_________________
I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

Thanks for mentioning that Todd! That's why I need the help of others in this thread because there are so many things I know and take for granted through experience, that I can't possibly remember to mention it all. You can also make your own boiled oils but it's a long slow (but simple) process that's not practical to most folks. BLO is one of my favorite furniture (and tool) finishes and I've been contemplating using it on a neck just because!

Hesh and Stuart also added some valuable info. Keep 'em coming folks. This will benefit all of us. I'd like to be talking to y'all in here when we're all in our 90's (and above) still building joyfully. Much like Everette Fulton in Texas who today is 92 y/o and still building guitars and other stringed instruments.

_________________
Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!