Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Sun Jul 27, 2025 1:31 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: A re-topping question
PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:15 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:57 pm
Posts: 775
Location: Powell River BC Canada
First name: Daniel
Last Name: Minard
City: Powell River
State: BC
Country: Canada
Hi Folks;
I have just been asked to re-top an early '60's Hagstrom BJ12. An interesting guitar, though (to my mind) not really worth the expense.
This guitar was built with a flat top, a tailpiece & an adjustable, glued on bridge. IMO, a bad combination in a six string flat-top, but deadly on a twelve...
It has a very light X brace & a large bridge plate. There are no finger braces or tonebars.
The neck is bolted on to a massive mahogany heel block & the top is cut away right to the soundhole for the fingerboard extension.
Over the years, the top has collapsed around the bridge & is folding up above the soundhole.
The strings literally lay on the fingerboard now.
I suggested to the customer, (after telling him he could go buy a nice twelve string cheaper) that the tailpiece would have to go & I would have to beef up the bracing and work in an upper transverse brace. Maybe even a CF buttress system to support the soundhole area.
He would like to keep the original configuration... Am I wrong in suggesting the top would fail again with the tailpiece installed & 12 strings applying downward pressure on the top?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:10 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:50 pm
Posts: 2711
Location: Victoria, BC
First name: John
Last Name: Abercrombie
Status: Amateur
Daniel-
Didn't some of the 60s Gibson 12-strings (B 25 12, B 45 12) have tailpieces? That might be a direction to explore. I saw Guy Davis playing a couple of those in Victoria a few months ago.
http://www.kingtutbluesband.com/kingtutguitars/assets/7-29-09/orig1969gibsonB45_12str_lg.jpg
I agree that rebuilding guitars like that is a bit of the 'silk purse from a sow's ear' sort of project - fun to do for your own amusement, not so fun for a paying customer...IMO, of course.

Cheers
John


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:03 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:57 pm
Posts: 775
Location: Powell River BC Canada
First name: Daniel
Last Name: Minard
City: Powell River
State: BC
Country: Canada
Hey John;
Thanks for the pic! If you look at the light reflecting off that top, it looks to me like it's on the way down.
I actually enjoy major repairs. I've re-topped five instruments so far & find it very satisfying.
If I don't think the instrument is worth it, I try to talk the customer out of it. Then I tell 'em what it's gonna cost. If they don't walk away, I'm happy to have the work.
Sure pays better than building, at this point in my endeavours.
See you at the next ILG meeting?
Cheers! Dan


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:09 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:27 pm
Posts: 2109
Location: South Carolina
First name: John
Last Name: Cox
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I say go for it if he wants it....

I think there are enough tailpiece 12-stringers out there to say that it *Can* be done.... The most famous one that comes to mind is the Stella.. but Framus makes one like it....

It sounds like the majority of the problem came from the structure not being designed to really take the brunt of 12-strings + the tailpiece design putting all the bridge force into the "Straight Down" direction, rather than rotating and towards the neck... It seems like a domed top would be the ticket....

I am also one who feels like Retops on cheap/beater guitars can really be fun.. I am amazed at how good they can sound (Unless you gotta get someone to pay for a $2,000 repair on a $200 guitar..)

Thanks

John


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:51 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:50 pm
Posts: 2711
Location: Victoria, BC
First name: John
Last Name: Abercrombie
Status: Amateur
Daniel Minard wrote:
See you at the next ILG meeting?

I thought the ILG (Islands Luthiers group in BC) was more-or-less dead? I haven't gotten an email for quite a while.

I like 'major' repairs for my own amusement - I've got a re-topped Hofner 'classical' and a repaired and re-backed Gibson MK-53 in the works here...still. ;)

Cheers
John


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:42 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:16 am
Posts: 2692
Major restorations are fun--on instruments that are well built to begin with.

I recommend against trying to put a high gloss polish on a turd. It's like punching a tar baby.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:28 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:16 am
Posts: 2692
I should have added, that if its your own guitar, there isn't much downside other than wasting time. If it's someone else's, and especially if you are getting paid, the potential downsides tend to make these jobs a bad idea. IMO.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:01 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 6262
Location: Virginia
I'm not sure whats so bad about a tail piece on a 12 string. It takes away the rotational force of the bridge which caves in the sound hole doesn't it? And if the original configuration lasts another 40 years then so be it IMO


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:00 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:17 pm
Posts: 534
Yeah, there's a long history of tailpieces on 12 strings. I think they work great, I just re-topped a '70s Japanese plywood folk boom special that never had any sound, and it turned out great. Just for personal use as it had been sitting around forever because of it's lack of sound. I domed the top and left it a little thicker, put in some flying buttress bracing, reset the neck and I'm really happy with it.

Image
As you can see, I agree with Howard about not wasting time trying to get a perfect finish on a dog. :lol: In leveling out the sides and sanding off the plastic type finish I sanded thru the stain in a "few" places, a quick french polish over it and it's a player.

Image
Stained the top so it fits with the rest, and a piece of junk is now a fun, good sounding and playing 12.

Joe


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:32 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:57 pm
Posts: 775
Location: Powell River BC Canada
First name: Daniel
Last Name: Minard
City: Powell River
State: BC
Country: Canada
Thanks for the input guys.
Joe; Is the bridge in your pic floating? Or did you glue it down?
It's good to hear that a domed top will stand up to the strain. Every tailpiece flat top I've seen was showing some degree of collapse at the bridge. I guess that's from the days when a flat top was actually flat.
Any suggestions on brace size?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:34 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:17 pm
Posts: 534
I like to keep the bridge floating on a tailpiece guitar Dan. To me it's one of the beauties of the system, keeping intonation adjustment easy. Changing action height to suit a player, string gauge etc. can make intonation adjustment necessary, not to mention of course gradual body geometry changes. Just keeps it playing nicely over a longer period of time. Something I discovered buying old guitars off ebay. The intonation is always off, at least in the price range I can afford to mess with. Floating bridge/tailpiece guitars seem much easier to get back into playing condition.

I checked with Todd Cambio on this and he also keeps his bridges floating on tailpiece guitars. Mainly because of tradition and hasn't found any reason not to continue.

I'm afraid I can't give much advice on bracing size as I've been using a little different bracing system, bridged ladder and tonebar.

Image
I also tend to build rather intuitively and just follow what seems to feel right to me at the time. And yes sometimes it backfires dramatically on me! :lol: On this one I sanded the rims on my usual 25' radius top dish but shaped my braces on the 15' radius back dish, so this top has a little extra pre-tensioning built into it. Not by design, but by screw-up, but seems to have come together nicely and may be a plus. Maybe the fortuitous accident? We'll see, I'll take my learning where I can find it. :D

Of course it's all much easier when you're not building for a customer, so take all my advice with care since you do have a customer.

Good luck and let us know how it goes,
Joe


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com