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I would like to try using a zero fret on my current build. I played one years ago and liked it, and I play most of my songs with a capo.

Questions:
Would a stainless fret be prudent for the zero fret? I have read that they wear more then regular frets causing a ping when bending in first position.
Would it be prudent to use a larger crown fret to give some height over the first like on a nut?
Or install the zero fret after the others are leveled to give it some extra height.
Are there any issues with a zero fret on a fan fretboard layout? I think it may be more comfortable given the nut angle.
I would also like to hear some zero fret pros and cons from those with opinions on them.
Thank you,
Rob

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Rob, I have never done a zero fret, but everything I have read about them, including discussion on this forum indicates that you do not need a higher crown - use the same profile wire and you should be fine.

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"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck

I do zero frets. No, you do not need a higher crown, just level everything together. If you do a lot of bending down the neck, a stainless fret should wear longer, though I use the same fret wire as for all other frets. Before I started building, I played a zero fret, Alvarez Yairi steel string for 25 years and it shows very little wear and it is not stainless.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Yeah, but you like banjos! We supposed to believe you?

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Waddy

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars

The 'higher crown' discussion comes up from time to time and I recall reading some different opinions on whether an oversized fret is required for the zero.
When you make nut slots, do you end up with the strings at 'fret height' or higher? (ie if you press down between fret #2 & #3 does the string hit fret #1 or clear it by a small amount?). This seems to be the same situation as the zero fret height discussion.

See http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=25284 for a discussion about the nut height question.

Cheers
John

Something weird happened.

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Waddy

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars

When I do a zero fret I fret the board and level without the zero fret in then press the zero fret in and that minute extra height seems to help with any buzzes, but I play with a heavyish hand.

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

Being a Zero fret anarchist for lack of a better term I have a question:

When I set up a guitar I adjust the both the nut slot and saddle height to achieve desired string clearance at the 1st and 12th fret with desired neck relive. (I adjust the slot depth at the nut and the saddle height at the bridge) This allows me to affect both ends of the string action. If you have no string height adjustment at the zero fret then all the action adjustment has to happen at the saddle and or by adding or reducing relief. Correct? I am not sure I would like that very much as you can only change the angle of the strings not really the entire plane of the stings.

Just begging for a snack for my left brain

Your argument is part of why I was thinking of a taller fret crown. Being a new builder I was thinking I will need all the adjustment available to make the guitar work. I think it is down the road that it could be more of a set up issue. Sting height at the nut is affected by neck relief, so from the start one could decide on the setup, to set up with more relief one would use the same fret height, to set up for less relief then one perhaps would reach for a taller fret for the zero. Down the road though, if a change was desired, there are only so many times that the zero fret can be removed and replaced before there is nothing left of the slot, while the nut can be replaced more easily. As for the fan fret application, I suspect that there will be some added comfort, but there is only one way to find out for sure, so I will get on that. As a new builder, I want to try all the things that I have always wanted but have never had in a guitar(since it will not be for sale), so multi scale with zero fret, here I come.
Not sure that was much of a left brain snack, but you did not persuade me to join the zero fret anarchy movement.
Rob

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The zero fret gives you optimum height for the strings on that end. The first two guitars I made, I used taller frets, then Kevin G. said the zero fret should be the same as the others. That was good enough for me and that's what I do now. Works beautifully.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

If you have proper relief and a consistent neck curve, then the zero fret does not need to be higher than any other fret. Wear on the zero fret is less than on the others, so it ought to last a long time and when it does require replacement, it can be pressed and glued if the slot is oversize. In other words, treat it like any other fret and all's well.

Sounds like a consensus among zero fretters. Any one else do like John Hale and put the zero fret after the others are leveled? I will likely go that rout, my personal set up preference is with little neck relief.

Waddy I hear that a lot.

Thanks all for guidance, I will think about something else now.
Rob

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Builder Micheal Sanden in Sweden does that, zero fret after levelling the rest. He has 30 years, builds 25+ guitars a year.
(also licences "copies" under a master builder series.)

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

If given a choice I choose a zero fret and level with the rest. I kind of get the idea of adjusting string action at the nut but can't recall anyone ever asking me to raise it higher than the zero fret already gives me. If I did the whole point is moot the first time the string is fretted anyway.

One problem I have experienced with installing zero frets is that there is precious little material between the zero kerf and the "nut". When the barbs are driven home they can act like a wedge and split that little piece right off. To avoid this I file the barbs off. The strings will hold it in place but if you are worried at all a little glue of any kind will be enough to keep it from shifting.

Greg N

Watch it. Rons my friend

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Say what you do, Do what you say.

You can reduce that risk by leaving extra length to the fretboard behind the zero fret positon, and then cutting it off after fitting the zero fret.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

The extra room behind the zero fret is what got me started on this thread, rookie mistake, I put the headstock veneer on before cutting the truss rod slot, had to keep busy waiting for the truss rods to arrive, so now I need to level the headstock veneer with the neck to rout, even with a big fat nut I will still have end grain from the veneer (1/8" thick, is that still considered veneer?) exposed, so zero fret, a little extra wood behind it and I am back in business, almost as if I had planned it that way.

Seems that removing the tangs and a little glue is still a good idea, we glue the nut just so it does not fall off during string changes, so the same could apply to zero fret.
Rob

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I attach my FB to the neck before fretting. I then wedge a nut size piece of wood between the end of the FB and headstock overlay. I then use a saw slightly wider than the normal fret slot saw to widen the zero slot slightly. I put a drop of glue in the slot and press the fret home. I've done 12 this way and haven't broken off the piece beyond the zero fret, yet.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Sorry for the highjack, but can someone tell me WHY you would install a zero fret on a custom hand-built guitar? I find it more difficult to get a perfect setup when a zero fret is involved. Subsequent frets levels are a bit trickier too. According to wiki, "The zero fret is primarily used to reduce production costs. The zero fret was commonly (but not exclusively) associated with cheaper instruments, since the cost of the labor involved in making a nut with slots carefully filed to the correct height is greater than the labor required to install a zero fret." Some believe it effects the tone of the open strings - is that your main goal?

Thanks for any illumination!

Scott

Old man Ron, and others who have opinions on why one would or would not use a zero fret, I would love to hear your answer to Scott's question. . .
My reasons for the zero fret are about uniformity, I use a capo a lot, and the zero fret makes it all the same, also, there is a bit of comfort or space that it allows in first position. I had a cheapo guitar years ago with a zero fret, and I just liked it, not entirely sure why.
Rob

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I can't imagine set up being more difficult with a zero fret, that doesn't make any sense to me. Each string is at the ideal height from the get-go.
It is an easier way to deal with the nut, but that doesn't cheapen the instrument, it's just a different way to handle that operation.
I started using a zero fret because my favorite guitar used one. It is a BRW, 1971 handmade Yairi dred.

Though a small point, maybe insignificant to most, can be made for the uniformity of sound coming from the strings. If you make a chord with open strings, some of the strings are sounding off a metal fret and others are sounding off the bone nut on a guitar without the zero fret. With the zero fret, all strings are sounding off the same material. Same when you are picking notes: Anytime you pick an open string then fret the string, there is a small difference in tone if the nut is a different material than the frets.

Ron

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

When I do a setup, of all the strings the low E has the most clearance above the first fret, and the hi E the least, with a tapering clearance in between. With a zero fret, the clearance at the 1st fret is the same for each string, unless you file a slope into the zero fret, and that would be trickier to get exactly right.

Scotty-
Why do you do that? I've always thought that wound strings would have more chance of back-buzz (which is the reason that nut slots are higher than fret height). Is it the 'other way round'?
Or are you talking about electric guitars with folks using very thin #1/2 strings?
Cheers
John

Hey John,

You're spot on about the wound strings buzzing. The low E does buzz the most, but the A buzzes slightly less, and thus can handle slightly less clearance than the E. And so on with the D, and then the G, etc. With a nut, I can easily set each string with it's own unique fret clearance; that's a little harder to do with a zero fret.

Cheers,

Scott

Hey, I wasn't paying attention when I read your post!! Hi and Low are pretty obvious- I must have been dozing!
Sorry.


Cheers
John