Official Luthiers Forum!

I agree that the neck is just as important. The thing I do not agree with is if a top quality farmed out neck is used on a guitar that it in anyway diminishes the guitar be cause it was farmed out. be it CNC'd or hand or machine carved. What maters is the quality of the neck.

i build some of my own necks and I farm out a few to someone tht makes necks by a combination of jig operations and hand work (not CNC'd) I do not feel this creates any issue at all.

When you look at the business of Luthiery , you have to look at time management . Making a neck is not easy and can take a good bit of time. This can all be out the window if you make a mistake near the end.
I do get my necks in as my time is more valuable on the bench. I also think it is important to know how to make one. As you gain experience you can make necks pretty efficiently. This still comes down to an individual decision.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

It's probably a good skill to have, especially if you have a client with specific dimensions in mind. Once you develop a system you can do a neck by hand pretty quickly, but it can be hard to get perfectly consistent results. It is also quite satisfying. I don't have anything against using a CNC per se, but I don't do enough volume to justify the need, and so far (knock on wood) I haven't lost one in 50+ necks using a rasp and spokeshave. However, if I could sell enough guitars to justify a CNC or even one of those mimic carver things I'd do it in a heartbeat. Also, I've never done a lam neck, and I could see the different wood consistencies and glue lines being a problem with hand tools while a CNC wouldn't be affected, but I speculate...
PS-Good on ya for doing one all with hand tools!

I really appreciate this thread, Filippo. One of my three goals this year (finishing an acoustic, developing my skills with finish, building a neck) is to learn much more about building necks. For me it was a joke Mario made about the day the CNC died. I've avoided necks because, hey, they're scary and commercially available. Some of that geometry can be quite frightening.

I don't hear Filippo calling into question CNC and it's merits (Filippo, correct me if I'm wrong here). The message I hear coming out is that making a neck is something we should have the ability to do, as luthiers. Part of the process of developing skills.

I like that there's no road map for the skills we need to develop and that it isn't so linear. Setup, voicing, bending, binding, inlaying, marquetry, neck making . . .

Good topic Filippo...we've been here a few times over the years and opinions can get heated and folks can get defensive. As a result, I'm going to take a little more time in explaining why I do what I do...and nothing more to defend my rationale.

Neck making has always been my most satisfying and rewarding operation in building the guitar. I probably spend as much time building the neck as I do the body. For me, I place a lot of importance in having control over the materials and the process. Because I select my own mahogany in raw form and age it in my shop for a minimum of a year, I know that it is stable and likely to remain so over the life of the guitar.

In building the neck block, I split and then orient the 2 outer mahogany portions such that I can achieve an opposing and symmetrical grain pattern. I consider this really important and something that is not always available from a CNC operation. I laminate at least 3 plys of complimentary hardwood not only for aesthetics but also for strength. My neck blocks are capable of producing 2 one-piece necks. Once glued up, the neck block ages for 3 months. Before bandsawing the neck blanks, the block is trued square. Once bandsawed, the neck blanks age another few months before being used on a guitar. By this time, they are stable and never curl or warp. Once they're ready, I rout for my preferred truss rod and 2 carbon fiber rods...also something that's not always available.

Finally, I like to make each neck to fit the hand of the player. Lately I have been trying out asymmetrical carving on the hand surface and putting them in the hands of players. It's interesting to see their eyes light up when they actually notice the asymmetry. Not all prefer it the same way so it's something that needs to be planned for while there's still a lot of meat left on the blank.

This is often a controversial topic and I have no proof that one method is superior to the other. I just like to have control over as many variables as possible and I truly like the carving and shaping process. To me, it's an important part of the craftsmanship and tradition of guitar building and I want my necks to represent a signature of my effort. Same reason why I mill and slot my fretboards and carve my bridges. The only CNC I employ is getting my MOP signature logo done. Of course, If I were ever blessed (or cursed) into making more than 6 guitars a year, I reserve the right to reconsider the use of CNC components!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

...a freudian slip? ...if so:


I agree.


But still, you'd had to design the neck's shape, be it as a drawing or even as "ready-to-be-machine-read" CNC code, it's still a creative process (programming, nearly always is a creative job). And it's a lot of time you would spend on it.

Today (2010) I think that CNC is not (not yet) the way to go if you want to make just one specific neck for one customer. But if I was a prophet (I am not) I would say that within 20, 10 or even 5 years it will be a standard procedure that a guitar player will walk in a music store (not even a guitar building shop), leave a print of his prank in putty, show up next week to try out a re-meltable plastic neck on a real guitar, and he'll tell "a little bit thicker here and a little bit rounder there", try out the next neck's shape a few days later until he will say yes!

Well, I told you I am not a prophet and I might be wrong...

Anyway:
I think that today, the easiest way to make a neck fitting specific (personal) customer needs is... made by hand.

But (most) probably (even in future) a handmade neck (made with or without power tools) still will be the way to go to enchant a certain clientele. But which way (handmade or CNC) is more fun and satisfaction for the luthier... I think both of them are challenges, both of them are creative, and both of them cost a lot of time when just doing every time one individual shape...

P.S.
Filippo, if I had such a nice plane like the one you show in your photo I'd stick with hand tools! ...well I do anyway... I have been a programmer for quite a bit of my life

Really good discussion, and good posts by all so far.

Like Todd said, there is a fine line between making a guitar and assembling a guitar. Personally, as someone who dreams to be a professional at this some day, I want to strive towards executing all tasks of guitar making to a high degree of quality. I can understand the master luthier farming out some aspects of the build for the sake of time management, and I would not see a problem with this if I were in their shoes... after I had already made umpteen from scratch. On the other hand I see no problem with people doing this for fun using whatever pre-made parts they want, there is no point in making the project a pain when it is for your enjoyment.

I have only completed electrics so far, and the neck is by far the most enjoyable and largest learning experience of all for me.

Just my .00002 cents

We've had this discussion many times over the years, and there is no right answer that will be the correct one for everyone. I'm firmly in the camp that says that if you are making a 'handmade' guitar you make it all by hand, no CNC. However, if it is merely a 'custom' guitar then that does not imply solely hand made so if you buy in CNC necks or bridges, then you are not breaking the letter of the contract, though the spirit of it is another matter. For someone who relies on making guitars to feed his family, well then he will have to make purely commercial decisions, as long as the guitars are properly described then that is a decision only he can make.

To me carving the neck is one of my favourite processes, and particularly on my classicals where I like to do the whole guitar with hand tools only.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Interesting discussion- thanks!
EDIT- I agree that this is something that's been discussed before, so we should definitely 'agree to disagree' and all stay friends!EDIT
For me, it's a question of what is meant when I say "I built this guitar."
Most non-builders will assume (correctly) that I don't mean that I built the tuners,wound the strings, turned the bridge pins, or welded the truss rod.
I really don't want to get to the point where I have to add:
"Except for the wood, which somebody else thicknessed and joined. Except for the neck, which somebody else made. And, except for the fingerboard, which somebody else made. And, except for the finishing, which somebody else did. And..."

To see where this all can lead, you just have to drop in to one of the electric guitar 'building' forums where people are talking about the guitars they have bolted together from parts from Warmoth or similar companies. Is this really 'building'?

For a beginner, a 'serviced kit' can make a lot of sense, and I think that most people who build from serviced 'kits' don't try to conceal the fact. For all us amateurs (in the true sense- not selling instruments), it's really immaterial- as long as we find the activity satisfying. For a professional, the ethics of 'full disclosure' get quite a bit trickier, I think.

Cheers
John

I am a full time luthier . So to that end I look at the time management end of it. That doesn't mean I cannot make a neck. Also a CNC neck is not a lickem and stickem , you still have final shaping and setting . The CNC blank is just taken to degree that I can use for production scheduling.
Now with that being said , I agree that you as a luthier need to develop this skill. I have patterns for the wood shaper that I can use to rough out a neck that also saves time. I don't see a problem with using a cnc neck and it doesn't take away from the skill of the build.
I can tell you that some big name luthiers also will get serviced kits , this isn't that they cannot do it but as a time constraint for production, it helps them as they know the parts are to their spec and the cost is controlled. Having the fixtures to mass produce parts makes things easier so in a way you are looking at specialized niche market.
This isn't an easy question to answer as there are many facets to it . When you are building 12 guitars a year , that is a lot different than when you are making 50 and not all the same. It is a business decision that only you the builder can make. I used to think that if you didn't do it all from cutting the sides and thicknessing the back and all inlay and finish work you were cheating. As I get more busy I can see that value of getting some things out sourced as long as you have a supplier that can supply the quality and quantity needed.
When you are in a business you have to look at cost production , affordability and all the things that are associated with business. Decisions that are not as important when you are one offing guitars. I don't condemn any conflicting opinions on this topic but if you take this argurment , if you don't make the parts you take off a car to repair , are you less of a mechanic?
I find this a great topic.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Also, we shouldn't forget that many (most?) of the famous builders of the past had apprentices to do some of the basic jobs, and 'girls' who did the finishing. Does that make their guitars less 'hand built by the master'?
Today's one-man shop is a different situation entirely.

I love making necks and it's fun to see yourself get better at it. I think every beginning builder should make his own necks until they are really good at it. After that CNC is fine if it fits what you are doing. Not getting good at neck making is eliminating one of the most satisfying parts of the whole process.
TJK

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I enjoy making necks; it's fun, it's really not that difficult, the heel and headstock are places you can make your mark/add a bit of design flair, and so on.

As to the CNC vs. Handmade...I'll probably try my hand at programming my CNC machine to do the rough carving for me (with about 1/16" or so of 'oversizedness'), mostly because it strikes me as a good bit of CAD practice. I still hand-shape each neck to fit the guitar in question, often to suit the player's tastes, and I keep experimenting with various degrees of asymmetry. Physically taking a rectangular blank shaft from squared to roughly round doesn't take much more than 15-20 minutes with a rasp and a couple of scrapers, the heel takes at least twice that, and I spend a good hour, usually, fine-tuning the shape at the beginning, and often go back for finishing touches later on during the build. So why add CNC to the mix? For me, mostly because of something Rick turner mentioned a good long while ago: he rough carves the neck, then re-levels the fingerboard gluing surface (which practically always moves a little), then glues the board, then finishes the carve. I figure this will let me rough-carve multiple necks (leaving the head transitions, headstocks blank, leaving the heals oversized because I enjoy the handcarving as well) in advance to let them 'age' in that state prior to building with them.

The 'handmade' argument is somewhat moot unless you build without forms or templates - which are made using pattern-making skills that may be done by hand instead of the computer, but frankly, a CNC is still a tool, and when used wisely can be a very powerful one. The final fitting, shaping, setup, fretting, and almost every aspect of building the body is 'handmade' work anyway. I need to prep (resaw, joint, square, etc.) any blank I put into a machine anyway as well...

I enjoy carving necks and think that it is a skill that is beneficial to develope. That being said, if one is trying to make a living as a luthier, a CNC'd neck might make sense. This would be a business decision that the luthier would have to make based on his/her production schedule.

Chuck

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This is a subject that really hits home with me. I learned luthiery while serving as a R&D engineer at PRS. They would hand carve their necks & bodies and then hand them over to me, at which point I would do the digital work to setup the CAD models and the carving programs for the CNC's. I've spent literally thousands of hours perfecting my ability to make a CAD model of a CNC carved part match a hand carved prototype within about .005" on a neck and about .010 to .015 on a carved top. Those guys were pretty picky about the way stuff carves.

I currently build and sell acoustic guitars that I make out of my own shop, with my own jigs, with my own CNC, from my own programs, made from my own CAD models. I do advertise my work as "handmade" - given that on a typical build I spend about 12 to 15 times as much time on the "hand work" as I do cutting parts on the CNC. I try to build the best quality guitars that I can - sometimes that means I have to do something by hand and sometimes the best tool is the CNC. I would never attempt to voice a top on the CNC just as I could never hope to compete with the efficiency and accuracy of cutting inlay on my CNC. I use the best tool for the job - period. There are a lot of good builders out there and I feel that I can best compete on cost and quality if I use the best tools I can to create the best guitars I can in as effective a manner as possible.

Best,
Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

Trevor, I don't think Flippo was talking about CNC, or no CNC, I think he was talking about making a neck yourself, or farming it out. I can go from a band sawed neck blank to a carved neck in a couple hours, by hand. If I were to try doing it with CNC it would take........years. IMHO CNC is a tool. I have no knowledge about CNC, and don't care to (try to) learn. I suspect I use a tool or 2 that "CNC guys" wouldn't want to use. If the final results is a great sounding guitar it doesn't really matter what tools were used.


I personally don't care who makes their own necks and who doesn't. I do think everyone should build at least 1 guitar that they made and done everything for, including the neck, fingerboard, bridge, finish ect. with whatever tools they have at their disposal.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

Oh I know - no ill will was intended! I just wanted to point out that there is some non-negligible amount of skill that goes into the CNC part of it as well. When you setup the CNC part of it, you have to digitally carve the part. By the way, having hand carved parts definitely helps in this respect..!

I love to see a nice curl of wood come off a part....I just like to see it immediately followed by another with sufficient speed to make it appear blurry

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

Good point Filippo, I think it has to come down to the individual. When it comes down to it , I still personally have to finish shape the neck to what the client or what I am looking for. A cnc neck is not a finished neck.
Most of the builders that I know out source necks and finishing. When you look at the hazards of finishing , it may be healthier to out source something likt that. In the end it comes down to the commercial end of what will and what will not sell. I admit that I like to make necks and when I do prewar Martins , I have to carve them as they are not available and this will add a cost to the product .

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I have done it both ways. Made them myself, had them custom CNC'd, bought off the shelf CNC'd necks, etc. Honestly, I really don't think that outsourcing them (CNC or otherwise) saves any significant time. With a few jigs, a shaper, and a rasp I think I can make one from scratch almost as fast as I can modify a CNC'd neck to be the way I want it.

I don't have any fundamental problem with CNC. I think it is a new tool for us to learn and explore. I look at the work that Taylor, Petros, Ryan etc are doing with theirs and you can see it is far more than a mechanical pair of hands, it is a tool to expand our creativity. It may not be to everyone's taste, but I do find the work that they are all doing is exciting. These machines are getting inexpensive and I envision a time (probably within a decade) that most pro builders will have one in their shop. At first it will probably bang out "regular" parts, but over time I suspect that we will come up with entirely new ideas that are impossible or impractical to fabricate by other means.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

IMHO, any way you want to go is legitimate, provided you are honest with your customers.

Many customers only care about the finished product. And as long as that's what you advertise, I'm not sure your customer cares who makes the neck.

But I've seen a lot of luthiers' websites that advertise something more than a finished product -- they try to sell the romance of the process. Their homepages are filled less with photos of the final product and more with photos of the luthier using handtools to craft an instrument "the old fashioned way." The photos and descriptions certainly would not give the customer the impression that the luthier outsources significant components. I'm not re-hashing the tired argument about what constitutes a "handmade" guitar. I am saying that the reality of how you build should be consistent with any expectations you have expressly or impliedly set through your advertising.

Personally, I like building necks. I also find it a sufficiently quick process that I can't imagine it would be cheaper to outsource. But hey, whatever works for you.

I think they call those places factories

Perhaps that is part of what brings all of us to this excellent site - we have an interest in doing at least a majority of this work in order to realize our vision of what a guitar should be. I think that doing this work is part of our identity as small builders. In the factories I've visited, there are usually only a small minority of people who can actually build a guitar from start to finish on their own. It's no small accomplishment to do this work well, regardless of the tools used!

Best,
Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

This is interesting. I read Filippo's opening post. and I agreed 100%. and I immediately had some thoughts of my own around the topic. but I scrolled down and read a lot of very well thought-out commentary different than what I was thinking.

I've built one kit guitar and am currently building a second kit guitar. So, I didn't just outsource the necks. I outsourced everything. I got the bug for building while working on the first one. and, while building this second guitar, I've been developing not just the urge to build them, but to MAKE them.

I just don't think I'm ever going to build a kit guitar again. and it really doesn't have anything at all to do with feeling "cheap" about not shaping the parts with my own hands or anything like that. the kits I used had great materials. I've been a serious player for 25 years, but a hobby builder for only 1 1/2. I have some very picky ideas about how I want the neck to feel and to look. as well as the rest of the guitar. hanalei moon et al are great, but the necks aren't EXACTLY the way I envision them. so the only solution is to make my own.

and the rest of the guitar is like that too. I have a burning desire to try different things and to see what they will do. I can't fulfill some of these desires by shopping online because the items aren't there.

in the future, if I keep building and sell them, what if I have a client that says he wants a 14-fret-to-the-body-laminated-slothead-neck with a profile that feels like an early 50's Fender C neck? I could tell him it's not available, or I could make it so. if I were in his shoes, I wouldn't want to hear excuses. I'm not going to condemn others for lacking skills, I just know that I want to be able to do it. I want to be a maker, not a middleman.

if the goal is to engineer an end result, the most assured way to do that, is to make the components ourselves. limitations are stifling.

I really don't have any issue with time saving production measures, or what have you. if someone knows how to make a neck, but chooses not to, I think that's fine. I just know that I'll be making my own...for a while. uh, and probably buying them, too. whatever works.

if choices are being made to be more efficient in the shop, that's kind of an aside to the jist of the issue, in my opinion. until you've made (or tried to make) a neck, you're not a luthier!

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"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."

BTW, for anyone starting out, I would recommend the following:

1) For your first guitar, the most important thing is that you end up with a finished product that you are happy with. You'll learn lots even if you use a kit, and a kit maximizes your odds of success the first time out. If not a kit, by all means buy as many pre-made parts as you want. No good comes from getting frustrated over a first guitar that doesn't work.

2) After you've built one that came out well, learn to make all the parts yourself. Necks, kerfed lining, bridges, fingerboards, binding, the whole nine yards. IMHO, those skills are essential. Also, it gives you a great confidence that there's nothing on a guitar you can't do.

3) Once you are proficient at building everything yourself, do it however you want. You shouldn't feel bad if you make an economic choice to outsource something that you could do perfectly well yourself if you chose.

IMHO, any way you want to go is legitimate, provided you are honest with your customers.

Many customers only care about the finished product. And as long as that's what you advertise, I'm not sure your customer cares who makes the neck.

But I've seen a lot of luthiers' websites that advertise something more than a finished product -- they try to sell the romance of the process. Their homepages are filled less with photos of the final product and more with photos of the luthier using handtools to craft an instrument "the old fashioned way." The photos and descriptions certainly would not give the customer the impression that the luthier outsources significant components. I'm not re-hashing the tired argument about what constitutes a "handmade" guitar. I am saying that the reality of how you build should be consistent with any expectations you have expressly or impliedly set through your advertising.

Personally, I like building necks. I also find it a sufficiently quick process that I can't imagine it would be cheaper to outsource. But hey, whatever works for you.

So far everyone who posted says that they "love" making the neck. Just to be ornery I'm gonna say that I hate carving a neck, I do it 'cause I can't get what I want. But I'd rather build 5 boxes than carve one neck. Building the box is FUN, building a neck is drudgery!
I do this just for fun.
So there!........ Mikey

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The Biggest Little City, Nevada
www.hammondguitars.com
I love building guitars!