Official Luthiers Forum!

This is one of the first threads that I have started as a result of everyone's very valued assistance with ideas for future threads of interest and value here on the OLF. As suggested I thought that this is a great place to start.

For many of us working in the shop is often a solitary experience and if we get hurt.... we need to know what to do, how to summon assistance, how to survive.... My hope is that at least some of us will be adding the things to our shops that result as recommendations here and be safer for it.

So let's talk about fire extinguishers, first aid kits/supplies to have in the shop, communications to get help, and helping one's self in the event that we have an accident and are home alone...

I'll throw this out for starters - what kind of fire extinguishers should we have and how large a fire extinguisher should we have? I see them in Lowes and HD ranging from $10 through $100 but I am clueless as to what to purchase. I have two now that are getting old and the needles on the dials are hovering between charged and refill. Do I toss these, can they be refilled, if so where?

Please anyone and everyone with questions or recomendations about shop safety post them here?

Thanks

I'd like to suggest that for any woodworker who is genuinely concerned about fire safety and insurance coverage, the best course of action is to enlist the aid of your local fire department. Inviting the local fire department rep to survey your work place with the goal being to solicit advice on all things fire related will result in a safe shop and will get you a list of the resources that you are asking about. I know that many home shop workers have a fear of municipal authorities and the codes and bylaws that they enforce, but my experience has been that they are there to help and are very co-operative when asked for that help.

cheers

John

As a business , I had to undergo an inspection by the insurance Company. I passed , but was a bit nervous. I have dust collection at all my tools and air filtration. So if you are looking at safety common sense makes good sense. I was told by I needed 2 extinguishers per floor I have a 2 floor shop.
They come 3 ways and I have the ones that are rated for all fires. Getting the Fire Company in is a good place to start. They can tell you what you may need and what direction you need to go. I have a first aid kit in my shop and stock bandaid . I also have a number of tweezers available for pulling splinters . Some splinters will cause infections more than others.
Don't over look lighting. Being able to see is very important and last point is , if you are on a concrete floor , invest in some good floor mats. I like the ones with the holes in it so the dust and chips fall into the hole to avoid tripping.
While speaking about this ,dust collection is important . It isn't the big stuff that can hurt you ,it is the fines that can cause your health problems . This is a great subject as I am sure others can tell stories from their own experience.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

One thing I think worth discussing is protecting your lungs. We use so many things that can be/are harmful such as adhesives, wood, shell, and finishes. I for one am not really sure how some of these should be addressed, if there is a risk, how to ventilate, and using proper equipment.

It's a good question...

We often take many precautions about what to do to Keep from getting hurt.... BUT... What sorts of provisions do you have for After you get hurt or AFTER some accident happens? (I had a kitchen fire 2-years ago... so I do know a little about this now..)

Do you have a way to contact someone for help?
Is there someone who will check on you if you don't appear after a while?
Are there clear Ingress and Egress paths.. say if there is a Fire or you need an Ambulance?

Do you have some sort of record of what you have in case of Fire or other calamity to make some sort of useful Insurance claim? "Wood" probably isn't reimbursed at a very high value... but if you can show some proof of what you have as "Business Inventory" with some sort of inventory valuation (And proof of that accurate valuation)... it probably would be....

Do you have some sort of provisions for what you could do in case something happens to your shop/house? Do you know of local storage units and moving companies so that you could pack up and get out on short notice?

Thanks

John

my workshop is in the school where I teach so I'm pretty much covered by all the rules & regs that apply here.

fire extinguishers all over the place, more first aid & trained first aiders that you can wave a bleeding stump at!!

mind you, any time I've nicked myself I've been able to stick on the bandaid myself.

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I'll throw this out for starters - what kind of fire extinguishers should we have and how large a fire extinguisher should we have? I see them in Lowes and HD ranging from $10 through $100 but I am clueless as to what to purchase. I have two now that are getting old and the needles on the dials are hovering between charged and refill. Do I toss these, can they be refilled, if so where?

Hesh, the fire extinguisher problem is most certainly IMHO an overlooked safety issue. It is so easy to let it go as an added expense that you'll get to later. The initial investment (most certainly for small luthier shops) is minimal. The extinguishers are refillable. They make me do it every 6 months. The fie company claims that any more than this amount of time risks problematic performance. I don't know how much of this is a sales pitch and how much is reality but I don't really care. It cost $10 per re-fill. I figure ten bucks is worth the insurance that I would have a shot at dealing with a fire when it most counts. In the phone book you can look under fire extinguishers and see that there are fire protection companies that both sell them (Home Depot and Lowe's would probably be less $) and refill them.

Another thing I might mention is that many people that have fire extinguishers hanging on the wall both forget that they are even there and don't have the first clue on how to operate them. The situation that would demand their use is one with no time at all to "figure out" how to get that stuff spraying. Look at them, ask the fire protection guy questions about how to use them, how they work, what size you need etc. before you need them. It's a really easy thing to do now that could end up making one feel like the hero of the decade later on.

One interesting idea I heard years ago, is to have a phone in the shop. Also think about the mounting height so that in the case that you are unable to stand up you can still reach it.

Most of us probably have cell phones now, so this isn't as big a deal as it once was. Maybe the prudent thing to do is to have a "dock" for your cell phone in a central location.

Eye protection. I think when I get my shop done I am going to have about 10 pairs of safety glasses, one at each machine and additional ones at bench areas.

Safety lock-outs to prevent kids from using the machines unattended. One suggestion I heard was to put little luggage locks through the hole on the end of the plug so that it cannot be plugged it. It's probably not efficient enough for each of us to do something like that everytime, so maybe a lockout on your main power panel or subpanel would be something that we could do everytime.

Certainly dust control and hearing protection should also be addressed.

Darrin

If you have a home/shop security system you can have a 'heat rise' detector added to the system.
(Regular smoke detectors tend to 'false alarm' in most shops using power tools).
Fires can happen when you aren't in the shop.....
And a sprinkler system would probably be a good idea, though I don't have one.

And on the fire theme, good storage for solvents and finishing chemicals is an area that should be addressed.

I would be leery about inviting 'the authorities' into my home shop when common sense and some basic research will allow me to do my own inspections.

Cheers
John

The advise I go from the fire inspector when I asked how useful the extinguishers are was interesting. He looked around my facility and told me run for the door and call 911 first, then the extinguisher. This was a large shop with lots of wood. Point is they are limited, need to be used immediately. You are right Hesh in that these things need to be thought of ahead of time, since there is no time during the emergency. Fire departments are very helpful, I did have the difficulty in the same shop where the Fire Inspector insisted that I need all my saw dust to vac out of the shop, and I would have loved to comply, but I could not afford that size of vac system. If you read the UBC, it does say that all particulate must leave the facility, though rarely enforced. Fortunately I guess he was just in a bad mood that day, I never complied and he never came back in the remaining 6 years I was there, but I always worried he would show up again and shut me down.

I hate stuff in my pockets when I work, but I do go out of my way to make sure my cell is in my pocket when I am using power tools, just in case.
Rob

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I've been thinking about lighting lately as well. John, what do you recommend? The garage of the house we moved into is very dim even with two fluorescent fixtures.

My shop lighting is on the 3rd set of lights . I went from incandescent and florescent to the new florescent with a halogen center. Incandescent bulbs didn't have a good light spectrum and they wasted a lot of energy. Then I tried Florescent and incandescent . This helped a little but again , a poor spectrum of light and not controlled enough.
I found lights at Lowes that have the swirl high efficiency florescent with a center halogen tube. This gives me a nice color spectrum that is close to natural sunlight , and at areas that I need good task light I have track halogen flood lamps.
The new lighting scheme uses about 1/2 the wattage of the incandescent without loosing any lumens . I can see very well and the lighting color helps see defects that may be hidden under older lamps.
No more shop lights

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I keep an eight pound chemical extinguisher (Rated for A, B and C class fires) in my shop. The shop is only about 12 by 12 feet. Its handy, but hope to never have to use it. I keep a homebrew firstaid kit containing Bandaids and Betadine for the small stuff and large gause pads and tape for what I don't want to think about.

I put a 1" chisel through the web of my left hand 25 years ago or so and was reduced to using a paper towel and black electrical tape to bind it up to the point that I could drive myself to the ER. If memory serves, it was about 25 stitches to close the cut.

I have also spray painted a day-glow orange 3" diameter circle on the deck of my band saw with the blade at center. It is a good visual for me to keep my fingers out of there!

No gloves around power tools. Roll up your shirt sleeves around power tools. Turn off the music and other distractions when using power tools. Leave the guard on the table saw. Use push sticks and feather boards.

Safety is good! Django could play with three fingers -- I don't want to try!

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Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC

This is a safety tip I got from my Father , and it saved me a number of times. I used to have a bandaid taped on my table saw. When I set the blade , I would adjust it so that the teeth just protruded out of the top. My Dad always said that to set the blade only as high as it needs to be . This is good advice ,first off you only have the amount of blade touching the work that you need , and 2ndly if you do run your pinkies on the blade , you can use the bandaid ,and not have to look for your fingers to take them with you to the ER.
Yes , I did touch the blade a few times in my 50 plus years , and I still have all the fingers. Of the people that have cut themselves it is often that freak second of not paying attention or doing something that you shouldn't . Know your tools and the safety rules . Never put your work in a position on the table saw where it can bind between the fence and the blade and kick back. Never raise the blade higher than it needs to be . Replace dull blades and have good lighting. Last but not least , Pay attention to what you are doing . It is often the loose nut behind the tool that makes the mistake where you get hurt ,so don't be that loose nut . Fingers should be on the hand ,not in a plastic bag,

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Since I've gotten such great advice from the pros here on building guitars, as a Fire Equipment Specialist for the last 15 years, I'd like to share some important things about Fire Extinguishers.

1- Extinguishers are rated for the type of fires the will work on
A= ordinary combustibles(wood, paper, cloth, plastic)
B= Flammable liquids and gasses
C= Energized Electrical Equipment

As you can see most shops have all those hazards in them. It's very important to match the extinguisher to the hazard. Read the label on the front. It will tell you the classes of fire that Ext. is suitable for. Water is class A only. CO2 is class BC only. Think it'd be good to spray a Pressurized Water into your bandsaw that just burst into flames? That old CO2 that you picked up at the yard sale isn't gonna' do much on your pile of zoot! I'd recommend 2 Extinguishers for the shop, a 10#(that's the weight of the chemical, not total weight)ABC dry Chem. as the bare minimum. But I like to keep an old Pressurized Water around. The dry Chem. as you can see by the ABC rating can be used on any type of fire(except flammable metal, but let's not go there now). The Water Ext. will have an A rating. Only good on ordinary combustibles, remember? That's what you reach for when your pile of zoot goes up, only! Familiarize yourself with the hazards in your shop, then buy an Extinguisher accordingly.

I recommend going to the phone book and finding a company that sells and services extinguishers in your area, and checking with them. They'll even have techs they'll send out to look your situation over if you need them. Buy a good quality extinguisher with a metal valve. Many that you find at the big box stores will have plastic valves, and not be rechargeable. Extinguishers require proper maintenance, so get one that will re refillable, and built to last. The cheap ones are cheap, but end up costing more in the long run, because you have to throw them out every 6 years and get a new one.

Now you've got your extinguisher, where you gonna' put it? You should always put it in a path to exit. Fire travels incredibly fast. If a fire starts and you have to go to the exit to get your extinguisher, when you turn around and see that it's to big, or try to put it out and can't, you'll have easy access to the door.

Maintenance you say? Check the gauge once a month. These things do leak from time to time. Make sure your hose or nozzle isn't clogged with sawdust(Hesh can skip this step) Make sure it's easily accessible, you don't wanna find out you stacked a pile of zoot in front of it and can't find it when you need it. Have it looked at by a professional yearly, and they'll tell you when it needs additional maint.(6yrs. for dry chem, 5yrs. for water and co2)

Now you wanna know how to use it?? It's simple- You PASS...Afetr you decide that it's the right ext. for the job, and you have a safe egress route...

P=pull the pin, it should come right out with a little twist and pull to break the tamper seal.
A=Aim low at the base of the fire. You want to put the agent right where the flames start.
S=Squeeze the handle to start the flow of agent
S=Sweep the nozzle from side to side.

Hopefully you never have to test this out, but if you have any questions, I'd be glad to help out.

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Rob

In regards to fire extinguishers I have a large water extinguisher in my shed which is fine if I have a fire with wood as log as there are no electrical items being used. I also have a halon extinguisher which can put out almost anything. It is what the police used to use for riots to put out one another in case of petrol bombs. Quite possibly one of the most useful tools we had until halon was banned do to the eco-mentalists saying it was bad for the O-Zone. We've had a few halon extinguishers in the house for years. I don't know it halon is banned in the US but it is in the whole of the EU I believe.

Halon can be used on a lot of types of fire such as flammable liquids and electrical fires. great stuff, but wow do they make one hell of a mess.

Actually Peter, Halon can still be used, but due to the ban, it is very expensive because it's all old reclaimed stuff. No more new stock. We now have new replacement agents like Halotron and FE-211.

And your comment about it being messy...??? Halon was developed for the computer industry as a clean agent for fire suppression. It's big claim to fame is that its CLEAN! The agent itself leaves no residue what so ever.

Halon, if you have one, can be rated for either BC fires, or ABC fires. It's been a while, but I believe in sizes up to 5# it's BC, and anything over 5# gets the ABC rating.

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Rob

GREAT stuff my friends and thanks for all of the great advice.

My two fire extinguishers are the type with the plastic valves so they are not rechargeable and need to be replaced with a unit that is rechargeable and larger too. I certainly agree that with the investments that we have in our shops not to mention the lives of our loved ones, including the four legged variety a decent, maintained fire extinguisher is an absolute must. I'll be using that phone book and making calls tomorrow. Now I just have to think up a name for my new fire extinguisher....

Also my apologies for calling this the Safety Thread. I should have been specific and called it the Fire Extinguisher thread because I don't want all of this very good advice from all of you about other topics to be lost or not searchable in the future.

So PASS it is and many thanks to everyone!

I'd say nothing less than a 10# extinguisher. Nothing worse than to almost put out the flames, then your extinguisher is toast. With the dry chemical ABC extinguishers, turn them upside down at least once a year or more and give them a half dozen whacks on the bottom with a rubber hammer. As long as the needle is in the green, you should be good and the stuff inside is ready to go.