Official Luthiers Forum!

It's been a while since I posted here but the old handmade argument made me think of another way of asking the same question.

Suppose two luthiers built identical guitars (remember this is hypothetical) in fit, finish, playability etc.

Both builders started with roughed parts close to size but they had to build everything. The first guitar was built by someone using nothing but hand tools. The second was built by someone using only power tools. Both builders used jigs etc. but they built them on their own using their own tools.

Which builder would you be more "impressed" with? Or are they just different and equally impressive?

This is not a knock on either approach. I'm constantly amazed by all of the awesome guitars I see here. I'm just curious to see the answers I may get.

I'd be amazed that anyone could build a guitar using only power tools.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I agree with Howard. Using present day technology is acceptable . I am sure Old CF Martin would have used CNC had it been available at the time.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I'll answer your question Sam. I would be more impressed by someone using only hand tools.

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"After forty-nine years of violin building, I have decided that the search for a varnish is similar to the fox hunt. The fun is in the hunt."
Jack Batts Maker and Repairer of Fine Violins

I can't say that I would be impressed with someone drilling holes with a brace and bit just to say they built it by hand, or sawing a neck block by hand or....

I have had plenty of experience doing these things with out the use of power tools, but the accuracy and efficiency of power tools can not be overlooked. So, if you do not own a thickness sander, then you will have to thickness by hand, or if you don't own a power saw, you will have to cut by hand,, obviously some things will have to be done by hand. But no, I am not impressed by someone overlooking power tools, just to say they built it by hand. That said, if a person chooses to do everything by hand for whatever reason, that's cool.

Chuck

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I would have to say the hand tools... (if by power tools you mean all standard shop equipment/CNC but with the standard hand tools as well). As I costumer however I could care less how the guitar was made if they are both identical in all aspects.

I tried to find an old Elderly Catalog. Somewhere they broke things off from "Hand Made" to "Individually Crafted. The first can be a small shop with several hands and a master luthier. The other being build by one person, start to finish. A one man shop.

It's always hard to stick to a strict definition. Somedays I heat my milk for my latte in my microwave before I steam it. The results are the same. It takes less time for me to drug myself and comment on these posts when I microwave first. Are one of those lattes' more hand crafted? Maybe, but does it matter to the final product. No, unless I boil the milk first in the microwave. That's called a mistake!

Years ago I took a couple of different classes with Philip Davis, a luthier who, at that time, was building fiddles and early music (gambas, etc) instruments.
I was getting impatient with carving the back of my fiddle project, and asked about roughing out plates with a router setup.
The answer was that it would work fine, but that most of the teachers he'd studied with in England/Europe were of the opinion that the vibrations from high-speed power tools affected the wood and were detrimental to the tone of the finished instrument.
This was 30 yrs ago, and ideas do change with time.

I haven't seen this idea repeated in print, and it certainly didn't keep me from reaching for the grinder and 24-grit when I was trying to shape archtop plates recently!

I did find, on those arched plates, that you could definitely 'hear' the wood when hand planing ( had to take off the hearing protectors...)...very pleasant.

Just another idea for the mix.

Cheers
John

How long would it take them to make the guitars? If the hand built one took 300 hours and the power tool one took 50, I'd be more impressed with the power tool one. .

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

I've always viewed guitars as "tools". Objects that, in the hands of a competent player will be pleasing to look at and play and produce the sound that player desires. I know many collect guitars as art objects and are totally wound up in the romantic soft light/reverb picture of the luthier working away in his cozy little dimly lit shop amongst a pile of hand tools and wood shavings. That's appealing but not my orientation. My goal as a builder has always been to produce a great sounding instrument that plays easily and does not offend the eye. I tend to use whatever building technique gets me to that goal the most efficiently. I don't do any CNC stuff except for some inlay but I make extensive use of jigs to insure a consistent product and facilitate the construction process. I do feel that a builder should master all aspects of construction themselves but after that I'd be fine with CNC'd parts if they were appropriate and actually were cost effective in speeding production. Discussions like this are the closest to perpetual motion mankind will ever get.
Terry

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

How about "hand made" music? If it turned out that your favorite solo guitar recording was made by overdubbing multiple tracks played on a digital sampling keyboard, would you enjoy it less? Maybe I shouldn't, but I think I would.
Most power tools require a high degree of hand skills too. Sometimes we take those for granted. I admire any well built guitar, but I still prefer the cuchillo's music to the belt sander's--even when that music is just an image in my mind.

I have no idea how "impressed" anyone would be, but I can't imagine doing any sort of fine work without hand tools. You want to take a thou or two off an edge? You could conceivably do it with a tablesaw after tweaking it for an hour or so. Or you could just take a well-tuned hand plane, one swipe and you're done.

Power tools are fabulous for coarse work, but really tight joints? I'll take hand tools any day.

Steve

P. S. CNC is obviously a whole different discussion.

If both luthiers take the time to put themselves into the work , no matter the approach , I am impressed . Thats the whole point isnt it ? At least it is for me , I want what I make to be a part of My thinking , My Approach , My design , My effort . Thats what I believe "Hand made" should have at the core . To Heck with the semantics !!

Ill shut up now !

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As a couple said very early on...

I think I would be impressed by the one who used totally power tools... I think Customers would be more impressed with the "Only Hand Tools" guy...

I would honestly like to see a neck being set only with Power tools! (Granted, there is a Youtube video of such, but that is at a giant factory... not in a 1-man shop)

Personally, I can't live without my Electric hand drill and router! I can do everything else by hand just fine, and have on 3-guitars now... (Don't take me as a Hand Tools Only sort of anachronistic fellow... I have a bandsaw and a 22-44 sander in the basement... I just don't have outlets yet... which kinda slows them down a bit!)

Thanks

John

I'm impressed, amazed really, when I see that someone has transcribed an entire old text onto a grain of rice, using a tiny brush with a single fine hair as the lone bristle. I offer them a standing ovation for their efforts. Now, when it comes time to actually read the book, I'd reach for something that would make Gutenberg drop his jaw in amazement.

If I play your guitar, and all of the walls around me disappear into the ether, and I can't tell where the guitar ends and where I begin, because I am so inspired by the timbre and I am playing effortlessly because of the astounding playability - well, I don't care if you carved it from a tree with a piece of obsidian, or if you cut out parts using CNC and assembled it using robots.

Even the journey of making instruments is subjective, where one builder grins from ear to ear knowing an instrument was built without electricity, and another builder reels with joy thinking back through the processes of jig making and using power tools for a great portion of an instrument. By the way, those cases are both "handmade."

I would guess that very few modern players demand (or expect) that a Luddite build them an instrument.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

I'm not impressed more or less either way. I do think that some farming out of parts or processes is a small "cheat" in an instrument advertised as "handmade". Other than that, I don't think it makes a difference.
This is one of those value judgements we can apply to our own work, but (I think) we should avoid making the same judgement where someone else's work is involved.
Like most of us, I use power & hand tools. I appreciate the speed & accuracy of the stationary tools in my shop, but I get the greatest pleasure when I am using hand tools. Shaping the neck, scraping the last few thou off of the back & sides to get them down to final thickness (and remove the scratches left by the thickness sander). Scraping the bindings & watching the curls roll off the edge of the scraper is one of my absolute favourites.
I also love the fact that I can approach cutting binding ledges & not worry that a small slip will mess the whole job up. Love that Fleischman / Williams jig!
And... Ditto on what WudWerker said!

If they were identical guitars in every aspect, I'd be more impressed with the one who used hand tools only.
By saying "power tools" you're implying anyting from a router, band saw, all the way up to a CNC machine.

I mean let's get real.....if two joined tops are handed to you that are .10 thick all the way around and one person did it by running it through a drum sander and the other did it by hand planing it.........the one who did it by hand planing would clearly impress me most.

Now I'm not saying that one guitar that is identical to another guitar is worth more because it used only hand tools......Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. It's too hard to judge being that they are identical guitars.

Crazy tough question. Man, I've got to go to sleep now.

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Thanks,
Blain

http://www.ullrichguitar.com

"89.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot."

Great answers guys, thanks.

I think there is something really cool in the all hand tools approach, but I think in the end I think it's the person using the tools that matters not whether they were hand tools or power tools. I've found it extremely difficult to build a guitar no matter what I use. And to make a really good guitar (which I have not done yet) that is even more difficult. So I really don't think using power tools is a magic way to make a good guitar. You still have to know what you are doing. For someone that does, power tools can just help you make it quicker.

I took a few classes with a luthier a few years back. I watched him make some parts on a belt sander and then totally by hand with chisel, files etc. Both were quite impressive. Which one was more impressive - it's hard to say.

If I were building to sell guitars I would use as many power tools as possible. If you can make a part that is the same quality or better with a power tool in less time, then it only makes sense to use it. Another advantage is that when you save time, a builder can use that time for experimentation rather than spending it cutting out binding channels by hand.

The use of power tools raises the bar for the starting point for what makes a good guitar - and that is a good thing.

Picturing someone sitting there building with hand tools is a nice image though. Hopefully that will never go away completely.

And just to answer my own question. I think I would be more impressed with hand tool guy. If someone could equal the precision of a power tool, that would be amazing.

I would be more impressed by the guitar that sounded best - simple as that. What tools were used is to me less relevent than the experience and knowledge required to 'tune' the top etc. I simply dont think building guiitars should be a competition about what is more impressive, how well someone can use a chisel versue a router... but on how well the instrument plays and sounds.

'Traditional' techniques are great as historical crafts, but they are only traditional in the sense that at the time there was no other option.

Can of worms opened

If it were possible to get identical guitars made using the two methods, I would be more impressed with the hand tooled model. In the end if the sound is the same, I don't care which instrument I use until I ponder how it is made. In one instance some skillful planning of an engineer and push of a few buttons by a laborer, in the other how each hand tool came into contact with the wood, etc..

The more labor intensive is simply more romantic. Of course... if the machine built unit was thousands of dollars less in price, romance would be overrated... at least until I could afford it.

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Chris Oliver
Infinity Luthiers
...in the shop.

live every minute...

I would be most impressed by the builder that produced the best fit, form, finish and sound

"Impressed" was probably a bad word choice on my part. As I said before, building a guitar is difficult and my congratulations go out to anyone who gets through the entire process and completes it - no matter what tools they use.

I just think it is more difficult to produce quality results with hand tools. For example, I have cut out binding channels both by hand and using LMI's jig. The results with the power tool jig were exponentially better than when I did it with hand tools. It was not as good as someone with experience but for me it was easier, quicker and had much better results.

Other examples could be thicknessing the top and back, making the bridge etc. etc.

The LMI catalog talks about Richard Schneider cutting out the binding channels with a gramil and chisels. To me that is awesome and I would love to see someone do that much more than I would like to see someone do the same thing with a router.

Just an observation, I don't have anything against power tools, except the noise and dust.