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I'd really like to start thickness sanding in my own shop (I currently drive 50 minutes to a friend's shop) but I have a really small shop area in my basement corner that I share with furnace/blower and water heater. I think I might be able to accomodate a Jet 10-20 thickness sander, the smallest I can find that is useable for guitar making, since it will fit on my bench top. Finding a place to store it when not in use is an issue. But the bigger issue and my question to you has to do with dust collection. I know this is going to kick up a huge amount of dust and I don't want to buy the sander until I have figured out how to effectively capture the dust. I'm pretty sure a shop vac won't do the job and I don't have room for a good dust collection system. What I think I do have room for is either the small Rockler Wall-Mount Dust Collector (3/4 hp, 650 CFM) http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=21255&tagem=rv or a similar smal Portable Dust Collector that Woodcraft sells (1hp, 450 CFM) http://www.woodcraft.com/Family/2001956/1HP-Portable-Dust-Collector.aspx

Does anyone out there have experience with either of these dust collectors and do you think they would be adequate for the Jet 10-20? Or should I forget the whole thing and keep driving out to my friend's shop?

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Kevin Mason
Mason Guitars and Ukuleles on Facebook
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650 CFM should do it IMO .... seeing as you can only sand 10 inches at a time ... I have 1300 or something, but ahve a 17 inch side sander ....

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Tony Karol
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650cfm should be just fine for that application . One concern that you have is that fine dust "can " be explosive . Is your water heater etc: a gass system that has open pilot , make sure that you are keeping the dust to a minimum and that those types of systems are kept dust free , this doent happen often , and I do not mean to try and scare anyone . However it can and has happened .

Kinda like the cell phone at the gas pump , it dont happen often , but can !

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I have recently done a fair amount of reading to learn about dust collection since I am setting up a small shop and don't want to risk my health, which is really serious business. So I have no real experience. Of course, the real experience of others has often saved my butt since I seek, as you are doing, to learn from them.

You are right that a shop-vac will not do it.

The bad news is that most small home-shop systems, according to sources, need to be higher HP and need to have final HEPA filters exhausting into your shop. To keep the HEPA from quickly plugging from the fine dust, an effective pre-filter, such as a cyclone, is needed in front of the HEPA. Neither of the systems you posted meet this. The fine dust will go right through the bag filters into your basement air. Said another way, the dust systems you are looking at will blow (stir up) the most dangerous size particles right back into your shop air for you to breath. The bag will plug fairly quickly which will quickly reduce the rated CFM (as if you can really believe the rated CFM anyway - many companies fudge on this number and it is rated for a clean system which is reality) and causing much of the dust to never be collected by your dust collector due to lack of sufficient vacuum/draw.

As you are doing, learn about dust collection before you buy.

Here's a start: http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/Beginners_Corner.htm

Then go to Bill Pentz's site.

Good luck,
Ed

i have a performax 10-20, but it is hooked up to a grizzly 2HP cyclone. as far as dust collection is concerned, the cyclone is overkill for just the sander, but its hooked up to other machines as well. the one thing i will say is that a lot of the complaints ive heard about the 10-20's is that they clog easily and can scorch lighter woods such as maple. because of the volume of air flowing through the sander with a larger dust collector, it tends to cool the sandpaper and i havent had any of the issues mentioned formerly. could be coincidence, but thats what ive chalked it up to anyway.

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sweat the small stuff.

Dust collectors and cyclones are pretty bulky things, which may be a problem in your small shop.
Also, as Ed points out, you probably don't want to breathe the air unless you have a really good HEPA filter $system.
I do dusty work in the garage with the window and door open, but I'm lucky to live where it never gets very cold.

Is there any way you can either:
a)Do your thickness sanding somewhere else (in the garage with the door open, under your deck, etc..)?
or
b) Put the dust collector somewhere else (garden shed up against the outside wall, adjacent garage, etc) and just pipe the dust away from your shop? If you use 4" smooth pipe you can run quite a few feet without much loss, and going through the wall is the same as venting a clothes dryer.

Cheers
John

Sanding makes dust. Lotsa dust. I wouldn't do it anywhere near open flame sources like your furnace or water heater unless you can really, really, make sure that no clouds of sawdust are gonna get near the flames or pilot lights. Set up elsewhere or try something portable outside.

Check with your local bars to see if they need extra sawdust on the floor

Arie:
The kind of dust that comes off a sander is too fine for a cyclone. Some sort of a wet scrubber might work. Menards have a wet thing for drywall dust that might work but I have not actually seen it myself.

Bob

Sand outside with a fan blowing at the machine (from your side).

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

What Howard Klepper said, otherwise going to your friend's shop sounds good.. you really do need to be well set up
for a dimensional sander- consider how much you'll use it v true/ full setup costs. They're not small.

Kevin what I do is use a Festool CT-22 vac with a larger diameter hose, nearly 2" if I recall, hooked up to my Performax 10-20 and regardless of what the naysayers here who don't even have this combo may say it works great for me and has worked great for me for 4 years or so. The Performax benefits from some creative use of plain old masking tape to tape up the hood better for better dust extraction and the Festool benefits from timing your bag changes (I use one bag per guitar) so that when thickness sanding I have a new bag in the machine.

Although 122 CFM is not enough to cool the drum well IMHO my set-up does work very well, leaves no dust in the rest of the shop, is HEPA rated so I am not just straining the dust and spreading it back in the shop, AND you end up with a first class shop vac that you will use (hopefully.... ) every day.

Lots of OLFers have been to my shop and I think that they would be quick to verify that my shop is pretty clean. As you can see in the picture I used this combo when my shop was a spare bedroom in my condo where good dust collection was a must and yes that is white carpet....

I have the same set-up as Hesh, I run the Festool CT-22 to my Performax 10-20, and I think it does an outstanding job. What I like about the CT-22 is that I also have a festool ROS, and this also hooks up beautifully to the CT-22. I am in need of a router, and have been thinking about possibly getting a festool router as well (even though they are expensive) because they have the dust collection and work well with the CT-22.

Glenn

Very cool Glenn - in the past when I would mention using this combo I would get crap from folks who don't have this combo so it's nice to feel validated...

Hey I have a Festool ROS too and could not agree with you more. I can sand away and no dust escapes into my shop. Great products and I can see why you would want their router too. If I knew how to use a router I might want it too...

Thanks again!

A lot of good information and advice here. Thanks to all.

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Kevin Mason
Mason Guitars and Ukuleles on Facebook
http://masonguitars.net

Kevin,
For what it's worth, I have seen a lot of cases like yours and they put the dust collection system outside, and ran a pipe through the wall. You can also install a remote control switch to turn it on and off. That method also keeps the noise down.
Mike R.

You probably shouldn't think of the 10-20 as a "benchtop" tool that you will pull out to use on your workbench and then put away... It's really heavy. I built a stand for mine with lots of storage underneath and put it on casters, and that's been really handy.



I also wonder if you could frame in your furnace and water heater with a removable access panel or door. In my own house, these units get their fresh air intake from a PVC vent that goes to the roof. I'd still be very cautious with dust and everything, but might help provide a little more separation.

If you're very limited on space, though, driving to a friend's shop is a nice option that many people don't have. You could probably prepare a lot of stuff ahead of time (top and back joined, bracing split and sliced, etc) and do it all in one trip and then you're pretty much set with what you need for the rest of the guitar.

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

Hesh's setup looks great. This is for making guitars, sanding slowly with fine grits, meaning lighter dust and not that much, throw some 60 grit on there to do some abrasive planing, I don't know that the high end shop vac would be as effective, but this is not the norm for guitar building. It is not like sanding is an all day thing, a mask or respirator is not that bad for a short time if you want to be careful.
Rob

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"Kevin,
For what it's worth, I have seen a lot of cases like yours and they put the dust collection system outside, and ran a pipe through the wall. You can also install a remote control switch to turn it on and off. That method also keeps the noise down.
Mike R."


This is kind of my plan. Although is the original poster's situation he does not describe having room for this. I am building a "closet" of sorts with my canister DC in it and an air return window with HEPA rated house filters to catch any spillover. This is to keep the air I am trying to heat/cool/humidify IN the shop. I am making the closet big enough that I can upgrade the size of my DC at some point if I feel it's inadequate. Although spending the money on a DC that is going in a closet rarely to be seen doesn't seem as sexy as a shaper or bandsaw etc, the idea of collecting all the harmful dust does have a certain appeal.

Darrin

Darrin,
If you have the space to build a closet for your DC, and can put it outside, that is the ideal solution. Out of sight and out of mind. You loose all the noise. Your idea for the return air is brilliant. You don't loose all of the air you paid to dry and warm. Making the closet big enough to upgrade is also very smart. You may want to upgrade your sander someday. I hope we didn't give Kevin "to much information".
Mike R.

Unfortunately, the suggestions about sanding outside (ever been to Chicago in January?)using a garage, venting to the outside, and putting the dust collection outside the workshop are options for me.

Jonathan Kendall makes a really good point. The Jet 10-20, while the smallest, is bulky (20"x20"x27") and weighs at least 77 lbs. Even if I was a young man, which I am not, lifting this to my benchtop from where it would be stored (something I have not yet figured out)would be no small challenge.

Others who have pointed out the risks of sanding in close proximity to a furnace or water heater with a gas burner is something I am aware of and concerned about. I generate no small amount of dust even without using power tools, and while I've managed to keep things fairly clean so far, my gut tells me trying to thickness sand in my workspace may create dust amounts way beyond my expectations.

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Kevin Mason
Mason Guitars and Ukuleles on Facebook
http://masonguitars.net

Kevin,

Lots of views here and your concern seems well founded. However, I have that same drum sander and with an ordinary Shop Vac, have no issues at all with sanding dust when using it. Moving it is another issue I understand.

If you are closer to Evanston, you are always welcome at my shop, BTW!

SBC

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Steve, thanks for the offer. I will PM you. I'd also like to see how your archtop is coming.

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Kevin Mason
Mason Guitars and Ukuleles on Facebook
http://masonguitars.net

I have the 10/20 and used a shop-vac for a while. Until I moved and was able to hook up a 1HP dust collector. The shop-vac will work, no doubt. But a "real" dust collector will help the machine run cooler, no dust gets trapped inside the drum, and belts last much, much longer because the oils don't "cook" on the grit.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Hesh, in the photo you attached to your reply, what is the white box sitting on top of your Festool?

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Kevin Mason
Mason Guitars and Ukuleles on Facebook
http://masonguitars.net

Kevin the white boxes stacked on the Festool vac are called (by Festool) systainers and they are the boxes that come with Festool tools. They are designed to be solutions for tool storage and access and really quite clever. They stack as you can see and since the vac has an excellent set of wheels this means that the tools in your stack are moved when the vac is wheeled around.

In my case I have from top to bottom the drill which is superb, the 5" ROS which is also the nicest that I have used for how I use a ROS, and lastly a cleaning kit.... that came with a 3 piece wand, attachments, and the hose you see pictured which is larger than the hose used to hook directly to the tools. BTW the real beauty of all of this is that it's a system and the vac hose plugs directly into Festool's ROS's, routers, jigsaws, and more so that dust and chips are removed at the source.