Official Luthiers Forum!

Recently we were discussing the goal that various builders may have when it comes to considering what kind of guitar they are setting out to create. Rick Turner described a Somogyi as in his opinion a guitar that has more of an enveloping sound that would be very pleasing to the player. He went on to describe a Smallman as being built more to project to the back of a concert hall. I personally think that Rick is correct as usual and I will add that I am sure that Somogyi is no one-trick-pony either and although his market may be for guitars that envelop the player I suspect, strongly that he is very capable of building a cannon too if he saw fit to do so.

This got me wondering what is more pleasing to me, what my goal is for a personal guitar. Please note that the operative here is "personal" guitar. Since most of my playing is not out the enveloping sound is clearly my favorite. I also know that what kind of guitar anyone builds will be dictated by the application, client, etc.

But for a personal guitar what is your preference the enveloping sound that may not project as well but surrounds the player with tone or a cannon that is loud, direct, and in your face for the listeners?

Thanks

Since I no longer perform for anyone but my grand kids and my self, what I build for my self is playability and tonal charterer and color.

Yeah, Ervin discussed these characteristics, he certainly understood how to build to either requirement, though I seem to remember him saying that most of his customers wanted the enveloping "couch playing" qualities. I think I like guitars that fall somewhere in between the two.

_________________
Gwaltney Guitars

Enveloping.

Ideally i'd want both.But playability is important too.

My taste in a classical guitar is pure andalucian going back to the Sagovia records that I have imprinted in my mind.

For a fingerstyle guitar my taste has changed. I used to like a sound with more overtones and a lot of sparkle but now prefer a more dry sound with less sustain and more muted tones. An example of this type of sound would be Alex Degrassi. http://popup.lala.com/popup/360569449467836796 I believe Alex is playing on an Irish made guitar http://www.messiah.edu/news/2007/Images/Alex_de_Grassi.jpg

I don't know what Rick meant by "enveloping" but I suspect it is more like what I used to prefer than what I now like. Enveloped in full sound of overtones and heavenly bodies of sound, kind of like playing in a bathroom. Versus clear articulated notes that die quickly yet pack a real punch for a brief but poignant moment.

_________________
Ken

Agreed!

Personal guitar - the guitar that is your go-to ax for most of your playing that is not a performance for others.

Personally, I don't even want a guitar that I couldn't use in a performance situation. If you don't practice on your go-to guitar for performance purposes, it will not be broken in, as it will have been sitting for a time. If you don't think that makes a difference, well......... !

If I want to be consumed by the sound of my own playing, I practice on the glassed in porch. I suppose you could also use the bathroom. You used to build in the bathroom, why not play there?

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Oh no you don't Waddy bro I'm not going there......

That is a very good point that folks who play out need to keep their performance guitar open and that isn't going to happen unless they practice with it too.

Another question I think about that is related to this is if there is a different tonal characteristic unique to the enveloping style guitar or the projection style guitar. I have found that the guitars I have made that project well have a "clean" sound, well rounded but forceful. I really like it. I have not had luck transferring this sound to a more personal guitar. The guitars I have made that work well in intimate settings are more lush, which I also like, but definitely not the same. I prefer the projective style (and sound) and I agree that the addition of a soundport makes a big difference in how I hear the sound of those guitars.

_________________
Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

To play devil's advocate, who would perform without a mic or another form of amplification in a situation where this would matter? Are there really that many people out there doing house shows?

By lush, do we mean a guitar with a rich blanket of overtones and less attack on the fundamental? A Goodall compared to a Collings?

I'm very new to both building and playing, so don't take too much from my input.

I overbuilt my first classical guitar, and it has a very warm and mellow tone that is perfect for learning and playing at home. This is what I was expecting from a cedar/mahogany classical from the start, but the fact that the top is a bit thick makes it even more so. It's fault is that it takes "enveloping" a little too far. In a concert setting, it would be totally lost, but I do love the tone for playing by myself.

I took a guitar class at the local junior college, and another student also made his first guitar. That one was *PROJECTING* if you know what I mean. I was sitting in front of him for a while in class until I had to move because I couldn't hear myself over his cannon of a guitar. His guitar would be wonderful for a concert setting because of the awesome projection, but is not much fun to be around in an intimate setting like a small classroom.

So my vote for a personal guitar is enveloping.

By lush, do we mean a guitar with a rich blanket of overtones and less attack on the fundamental? A Goodall compared to a Collings?

Just watch your long dipole and cross dipole movement to control projection vs presence. More presence is obtained with more cross dipole, I'm pretty sure, or was that long dipole?

It's pretty easy, if you know what you are doing.

That of course counts me out.......

I think good monopole movement also aids in good presence. It works for me, although it does cut into sustain.

_________________
"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

Since I mostly play for myself or in small room situations, I like the enveloping sound and I think the soundports help me there as well. But mostly my sound is still developing.

James buddy who is your question directed at?

Thanks

Projection is in the forefront as far as I'm concerned. That way the player has full control over the instrument.

IMHO a guitar with projection also has the capacity to envelope the player. Why not settle for both.

_________________
Michael Lloyd

“I was born to ignorance, yes, and lesser poverties ...
I was born to privilege that I did not see ... I didn’t know it, but my way was paved” – John Gorka

I tend to think the two are at least somewhat exclusive. I remember Fred Dickens making a guitar he really liked: it was much more powerful than any of his others. The players hated it: all the sound went 'out': the people in the back of the hall thought it was a canon, but the player couldn't hear himself. That's far from the only such guitar I've seen. How you get this stuff to happen, either way, is the question.

All guitars become more or less directional at higher frequencies. The box is so much smaller than the 12-foot or so wave length of the lowest note that that goes out pretty much equally in all directions. However, once you get up to the 'main top' pitch, around the open G string, things start to get more directional. I have not had a chance to test out one that's really 'projecting', or, for that matter, a super-enveloping' instrument. That doesn't mean I won't hazard a guess, though...

I, too, have noted that 'sharp' sounding guitars seem to 'project' rather than 'envelop'. One thing that correlates there is the relative pitches of the 'main top' and 'cross dipole' modes. Meyers (iirc) found that guitars that had a tall and narrow 'main top' spectral peak tended to sound 'sharp' or even 'harsh'. The cross dipole is the next resonance up from the main top mode, and it's nowhere near as eeffective at producing sound. Thus a cross dipole that is relatively low in pitch tends to 'steal' energy that could be going into the 'main top' mode's output, and causes the peak to benarrow. I'll note that in Flamenco guitars they often leave out the two outer fans, which drops thepitch of the cross dipole, and contributes (along with other things) to the 'sharp' and 'projecting' timbre. Back coupling can also effect the breadth of the 'main top' peak in the spectrum.

OTOH, I've found that thinning the top at the lower block tends to help with the 'enveloping' sound, and, of course, it also drops the pitch of the long dipole mode. It's hard to say why this works as it does, although it may have to do with coupling between the long dipole and the 'A-1' air resonant mode(s).

It's as easy to over simplify this stuff as it is to over think it.

Paul, have you had the opportunity to listen to someone else play your guitar? It may be that your guitar that sounds mellow (or even somewhat muted?) to you as the player actually projects quite well and sounds very different out in front or at a distance. I've experienced that with some guitars.

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Good point, Todd. I thought my first was sort of quiet, until I heard someone else playing it. It was much louder than I had thought it was.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Hesh, I think it is directed at me.

James,

I have built a few for people whose main desire was to have a guitar loud enough that they didn't need to bring their pickups anymore. I agree it is a minority, but one that I like.
As for the "lush" terminology, I hesitate to describe it in terms of overtones and attack. Not because they are not part of it but because I don't want to confuse the issue with my understanding of those terms, which are probably different from yours (and the next person's, and the next....). The simplest way I could explain it is that the notes of the projective guitar sound big and rich and have great separation, almost in a dry way. The enveloping guitars still sound rich but that richness feels more cramped. I still feel the separation is good, that is not the only difference but I realize I am having a hard time explaining exactly what it is.

Another thing I think about is what I see as the natural compression of my enveloping guitars. They have all had thinner tops, which certainly can account for that lack of dynamic range, or headroom. I wonder though if I could make an enveloping guitar without thinning the top that much. I wouldn't be confident of a way to do that and still have the guitar be balanced as a whole but I think it would make a more interesting enveloping style guitar if I could.

_________________
Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Yes Todd, I've had my instructors play this and it sounded wonderful when I was positioned in front of it. Of course they are much better players than I am. One instructor played many different pieces and decided that Bach sounded best to him on this guitar. I have to agree that 2 independent voices sound great.

I've noticed that when I play solo for the class that the sound does fill the room in a soft (almost tender) manner. So there is adequate volume for cozy settings, just not as much as some of the other guitars. But when playing together with the class on a song, I cannot hear myself play as the rest of the class seems so much louder.

I was very pleased with this first guitar after playing everything there is at Guitar center and finding nothing that I liked better than my own guitar. Until I played one of the other student's Cervantes guitar. Yow! What a wonderful instrument. I've got a lot to learn before I can produce an instrument that great.

It's just a general question to help define what we're talking about. It's easy to talk about different sounds without realizing it. Burton used the word lush, which could me something that's really harmonic like a Goodall, or something that's really reverberant but not necessarily as heavy in the overtones.

Hey Burton. I run into that difficulty often I responded before reading the subsequent posts--sorry