Official Luthiers Forum!

Do you set the neck angle on a classical the same as a SS? I shoot for a 1/16" gap at the 24 fret location with no FB for a SS angle. Also, what gap do you set the 12th fret action?

_________________
tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

Tim,
depending on the angle you use now (I'm assuming 1.5 or there abouts) the classical will require less angle but it needs a higher action to make up for the way the nylon strings vibrate. Since there is less tension on the strings you need more room to work with and eliminate buzz issues.
I'm sure a classical expert here will provide exact measurements.

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

SS necks have a slight back angle, while classical necks, usually, have a forward angle of somewhere between 1.5 and 4mm at the nut, depending on how the top is domed or not, and how the fingerboard is tapered or not. Some even build with a dead flat neck.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Tim -

Action at the 12th fret can be all over the place based on preferences. An average would seem to be 3.5 mm for high E and 4.5 mm for low E. Ramirez had these even higher. Flamenco values can go much lower - a full mm. The variation of 1mm from high E to low E can be achieved with a slant in the saddle, or you can plane the fingerboard a mm lower on the bass side and use a level saddle. A 1 mm variation from high to low is pretty standard.

My Reyes copy that I just set up has action varying from 3mm (high E) to 4 mm (low E). This was achieved with a saddle height of 11mm above the top at the low E side. Some flamenco builders take this as low as 8mm. Mine is probably set up slightly more to classical standards, aside from the 0.5mm lower action at the 12th fret.

As Waddy points out, how you get the saddle height can be achieved through a number of routes, either pitching the neck forward with a constant thickness fretboard (aside from the obvious needed taper on the underside of the fretboard in the region over the body), or a flat neck and tapered fretboard over the whole length, or a combination. It is almost always the case that the plane of the fingerboard surface is pitched forward relative to the (undomed) plane of the top. How much depends on how much doming to the top you add. This pitch is needed to get enough action at the 12th fret. Steel string players are almost certainly going to be happier with flamenco measurements for action, but classical players want the action much higher usually - they don't want any chance of buzzing during heavy string attack.

I can give you better numbers for determining neck pitch by measuring a straightedge gap at the bridge location, but these aren't in front of me right now and I don't remember them. I'll look tomorrow.

Jim

_________________
Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Tim ;
10mm saddle height(Classicals) 6-8mm for Flamencos above the top is used by many makers.
Anymore than that can put excessive torque loads on the top & bridge glueline.
My neck has no angle but it looks like there is one because of the 25' radius I use on the #2 brace below the s.h. and the braces glued to the belly .
The #1 brace above the s.hole is flat.
When you fit a f.b. to the neck and over the top it looks as if there is a forward angle but there is none.
I slot the f.b. and glue it on and then plane the desired relief into it.
All the time checking to see what the string height at 12th and saddle height over top will be.
The 10mm saddle allows for lowering the string height years down the rd.
I've had many Spanish guitars come in with 7mm string heights at the 12th fret and had to do expensive repairs to get them playable .

This may sound confusing but it works for me .
Doing it this way get's me the needed action and playability that my clients need.

Mike

_________________
Mike Collins

Thanks for the responses thus far guys. Mike, you mentioned neck relief. I assume, since there is way less tension on a nylon then the neck plays pretty flat. Do you want a relief in the center of the neck? Is this [only] accomplished by planing one into it since I assume there isn't enough tension to pull a relief? What is the desired relief or is it determined and customized to each player's attack?

Showing my ignorance again but what is the differences between a Flamenco and a basic classical? I know Flamenco usually are cypress bodies abd fan braced but the bracing closly resembles other classicals too, right? Are Flamenco built stouter to hold up to more agressive playing?

_________________
tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

Flamenco guitars are built lighter and looser, to accommodate the percussive style of the music, and the fast response required to accomplish it. Generally, they are a bit noisier, with regard to string rattle, and such, but play very fast. Differences in bracing include, usually, somewhat less fan in the bracing and, in most cases, no closing braces. This loosens up the top significantly.

Any relief in the neck of a classical is usually very small, and is planed into the fingerboard. Some builders prefer a flat board, and some a tapered board. It's all part of the plan of the guitar. I have been tapering my board from 7mm at the nut to 5mm @ 19 on the high e side, and 4 mm at 19 on the bass side. String height at 12 is 2.7 to 3 on the treble side and 3.5 to 4 on the bass side. My string height at the bridge is about 11 mm, but it needs to be as the height over the sound hole is in the 10 range because of the drop away in the lower bout in my build. I use about a 1.5 mm, up, neck angle at the nut.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

In addition to the info provided, its a good idea to draw out your plan in profile. Include the dome, bridge and saddle height, thickness of fingerboard, nut height, and string clearance.

I am working on a guitar, a Torres FE17 "copy", that requires a 5mm dome. The requires a different neck angle from what I've been using. When I drew it out in profile I was able to determine that the neck angle is in plane with the top edge of the sides, so neck angle is zero.

When I use a shallower dome, of about 2-3mm, I find that the forward neck angle is about 2-3mm.

I would infer from this, that if I were to build soundboard with zero dome that the neck angle would be about 5mm. Of course I would draw it out in profile to check!

_________________
Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

Flamencos are very lite in weight ,with usually less body depth to help with the highs and have a very low action that can even rattle or buzz!
Flamenco players tap(golpe) the &sometimes drum on it!!!
So a sturdy frame work is necessary .
Tim put side braces (brackets)on the ends of the # 1 & 2 braces-especially if using a Cedar top.

If you look on my site I think on the classical page you'll see a typical interior of a Flamenco top.

HEY!
What ya doing building nylon strung guitars?

Mike

_________________
Mike Collins

On my flamencos I have a 2.5mm dome at the bridge on the top, the nut end of the neck is 3mm lower than the 12th fret when the guitar is top down in the solera. The action at the 12 fret is 5mm. I do not plane any relief into the fingerboard because I like the flamenco growl. On a classical , you would want some relief in the fingerboard for a very clean sound with no buzzing. My strings are 9mm from the top with a short saddle. I build classicals with the same neck geometry but of course the bracing includes closing bars, and a deeper body. My flamencos are very user friendly with this set-up.....

John N

_________________
John Nowicki

John, isn't 5mm at 12 pretty high action for a flamenco? I'd have thought closer to 3 or so would be more common.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Hi Waddy,
I measure about 5mm to the top of the low E, about 3 to the top of the high E. If I go much lower I get too much growl=buzz when playing zambras in drop D tuning. I angle my saddle height alittle to raise the Bass strings. I can set up my guitars at about 3.5 on the low E but without any neck relief, I find that too much buzzing in Drop D gets irritating. The majority of Flamenco players that use a strong right hand technique I know would agree. One player I know who is always miked at performances plays so lightly that his guitar is set up at 2 & 3mm (high E to low E at 12th fret), so in the end I guess my conclusion is that it is up to the players preference.

_________________
John Nowicki

I see. I have a friend, too, who performs, and has a light touch, and likes a low action. I play with such a heavy hand, that it won't work for me, so I tend to go for the standard, 3mm/4mm clearance.

As a matter of fact, it's the guy who did my clip, below.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

John,
Measuring string action to the top of the string is unconventional
Of course you can do it any way you like but most of the rest of the world does it from fret top to underside of string since this is the clearance between string and fret
regards

Thanks, I always do stuff bassackwards and I stand corrected.

_________________
John Nowicki