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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:23 am 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:34 pm
Posts: 156
First name: Ellison
City: Whitman
State: MA
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
I'm in the middle of my first build, having recently joined the sides to the top. I'm ready to add the back to join up the box, but I think I want to add in a side port. I've done a bit of research and it seems the best time to add this is before the box is all sealed up. It seems like some people add in a cross-grain patch to the inside of the side and some don't. I assume this would simply strengthen the area, but is it really necessary? Does this effect the sound in any way? Also, I'll be using my dremel to cut out the shape (a simple oval should do) and then finishing it with sandpaper. Any advice on the kind of bit I should be using? Any other tips ore advice you have is more than welcome! Thanks.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:32 am 
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Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:37 pm
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First name: mark
Last Name: warwick
Zip/Postal Code: ll57 4RE
Country: Uk
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I am not a luthier, have only been reading forums, books, and what information i can get my hands on so if i'm wrong someone can surely come and correct me without any hard feelings.

My opinion though would be to wait till you have the strings on. You can start with a small hole and see just how it affects the sound by making the hole bigger. If you do it before it is done you may not end up with the sound you are looking for.

I've seen so many posts on people doing it after the fact that i can't see any issues in doing it then. Doing it before would mean you need to reinforce the area as it will become a weak spot during bending, if it is going to crack or split that would be the place it will do so.

imo

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:42 am 
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Contributing Member
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You need to figure the area of the sound port and reduce the main sound hole diameter by the same area. Otherwise you will raise the Helmholtz frequency of the box and you [could] end up with a "tinny" sounding git. It will not be as noticeable to the player as it is to the audience, especially through a mic and sound system. if your sound hole is already cut you can bind the inner edge to make up the difference.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:10 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:50 pm
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Location: United States
A lot of people seem to cut ports without reinforcing the sides. Some people still drive without seat belts, too. I like to use some sort of reincforcement.

Why not put the reinforcement in now, and then cut the port later if you feel you'd like it? One of my students put in a port after the fact when his reso was 'choked' due to a small soundhole. He reinforced the side, and cut the port with a handshaft. Since he could work with the strings on, he was able to test the sound and stop when it started getting worse instead of better. Then he made a nice trim ring for the hole, which reduced it in size just a little, and he ended up with the sound he wanted.

Tim McKnight had a good tip, too. It's a bit difficult to know in advance how much smaller to make the main hole, but I find, putting a 1" port near the wide part of the upper bout, that I end up making the main hole about 1/4"-3/8" smaller in diameter.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:55 pm 
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Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:37 pm
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First name: mark
Last Name: warwick
Zip/Postal Code: ll57 4RE
Country: Uk
Focus: Build
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A few questions if i might...

If someone wants a sound port before the guitar is built and one balances the size of the main hole, does that mean those who have done it after are making things worse with their guitar?

Everyone i've heard that has put a port in has reported that the guitar sounds better. Is that just because they are sitting close to it? Also would it mean that when you are putting one in and sizing it would someone need to be far enough away to tell if there was a decrease in the sound quality?

The other thing with the idea of making the main hole smaller is that leaves you dependent on making the sound port bigger then perhaps it needs to be doesn't it? It's not like once the rosette is in that you'd want to make the sound hole any bigger if it needs to be.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:10 pm 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:34 pm
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First name: Ellison
City: Whitman
State: MA
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Wow, I had no idea that this could have such an impact on the overall sound! Since this is my first build, I think I may stay away from cutting the side port this time. It sounds like optimally I should be planning for this from the start. I guess I'll just have to start a second one sometime! But I should really finish this one up first. My apartment is covered in jigs, molds, tools, plywood, and sawdust right now. I don't think it can handle any more clutter. I guess this means I'll be sealing up the box and starting on the neck within the next few days! Thanks for the replies, folks.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:52 pm 
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Koa
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Location: Grover NC
First name: Woodrow
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woodsworth wrote:
A few questions if i might...

If someone wants a sound port before the guitar is built and one balances the size of the main hole, does that mean those who have done it after are making things worse with their guitar?

Everyone i've heard that has put a port in has reported that the guitar sounds better. Is that just because they are sitting close to it? Also would it mean that when you are putting one in and sizing it would someone need to be far enough away to tell if there was a decrease in the sound quality?...........................................................................................


Yes, no, maybe [:Y:] [:Y:] [:Y:] Alot of people equate more volume to better tone. A soundport, reguardless of how badly it's done will probably make a guitar louder to the player. Most of the soundports I've heard about being "self installed" in finished guitars have been in............."economical" models. I'd be willing to bet that putting a soundport in a Mcknight, or Carruth guitar that was designed and built without one would hurt.........but a player who was only interested in volume might think it's better.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:07 am 
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Koa
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Is it really that important to decrease the main soundhole proportionately? It seems like you see alot of guitars with multiple larger sound ports and the main soundhole still looks normal.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:29 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:50 pm
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Location: United States
"Better" is a matter of opinion, after all. A sound port is one way to alter the tone of a guitar, and if it does what you want, that's 'better'. I don't think it's magic, and I don't think it 'improves every guitar', as some of the proponents claim. Nothing is always good. I think ketchup is great on French fries, optional on eggs, and not to my taste on ice cream. YYMV


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:15 pm 
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Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:37 pm
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First name: mark
Last Name: warwick
Zip/Postal Code: ll57 4RE
Country: Uk
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Status: Amateur
Well not quite believing what has been said here thus far i thought i'd do a little research into Helmholtz resonance. I came across several sites Notably this one :http://orgs.usd.edu/nmm/Archives/NewViolinFamily/Hutchinscheeseviolin.html

The site that led me to it was this one: http://www.classicalguitars.ca/details.htm I thought what he had to say on the subject was very interesting.

Quote:
Soundports (or acoustic ports, as they are also called) typically are circular holes cut into the sides of a guitar near the neck. They are a relatively new concept with some subtle but very real acoustic advantages.

Soundports function something like the soundhole in that they work in partnership with the inner air resonances of the instrument to release sound from the instrument. But the sound that comes from the port is primarily (if not entirely) for the player’s benefit, allowing the player to hear the sound of the guitar more completely. In modern, highly projecting guitars, this is particularly beneficial.

Soundports on the sides near the neck have little or no effect on the sound that the audience hears at the front of the guitar. This is perhaps surprising and somewhat counterintuitive, as most people (myself included) initially think that there would be a loss of sound. This is easy to test, however, by covering and uncovering the soundport while playing.

But if there is no effect on the sound for the audience at the front of the guitar, there is a definite and positive effect for the player, who can now hear much more easily and completely the sound of the instrument.

For some time I have cut soundports into the guitar on both sides of the neck, as have several other builders, including Bob Ruck and Kenny Hill. At Randy Reynolds’ suggestion, however, I now cut a single large soundport (total area is the same) on the side nearest the player. This is a subtle improvement, with less sound energy lost in the direction of the floor.

The interaction of a soundport and the internal air resonances is very complex, and we are no doubt just beginning to learn how they work and how we might make them more effective. Those with an interest in experimental instruments and air resonances may enjoy reading about Carleen Hutchins’ experimental violin Le Gruyere (think cheese!), which has a series of holes in the sides around the entire instrument. In her tests, Carleen blocks the unneeded holes with corks.


So from what i can understand from his vast experience on the subject is that it does not affect the sound quality if it is cut close to the neck. Hope that helps.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:18 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian
Old Growth Brazilian

Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:56 am
Posts: 10707
Location: United States
You really should reinforce the area around the sound port. Cracking is the biggest issue on crushing in. There are several ways to do this. The simplest is to epoxy in a woven matrix like bias tape or fiberglass. The most artful of course is an appropriate bent piece of nicely contrasting wood. Stay away from shapes with sharp edges and corners if you don't reinforce the area and those corners and sharp edges are more likely to start a crack than smooth rounded shapes.


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