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getting readuy to assemble #4 seems I am considering " stepping out ' and using the hide glue for this one, I understand joints need to be planed for proper glueing surfaces when using hide glue, so.... how would you go about prepping for your top and back radius'? ie how do you angle to ribs and lining to the proper angle? thanks Jody

Jody -

Perhaps I'll learn something new from the other responses here - I've not heard about the importance of planing the surfaces prior to gluing with hide glue.

Here's what I've learned from my experiece to date with HHG:

Fit is extremely important. Hide glue doesn't fill gaps very well, so you need a very good fit when gluing with HHG (suits me fine, since I need practice with that anyway, and I think good fit is as important as anything in building a good quality guitar. So I simply am focused on sanding with my radius dishes until the fit of the top to the sides is very very close.

All pieces to be glued should be warmer than room temperature when applying hide glue. When working in my shop in winter (low 60s ambient temp.) I've had glue-ups get derailed from the hide glue gelling too fast. Which leads to the next point.

You need to work pretty quickly and clamp the glue-ups while the glue is still runny. Just takes a bit of prep and a plan to get the clamps on in a very deliberate way.

All in all, I like hide glue. I like how it's water soluble, non-toxic, and very strong when applied right. I also like that it doesn't creep. To me the downside (short set time) is worth the other benefits. It also appeals to my reverence for the "old ways" - if it was good enough for hundreds of years of violin and other builders, it's good enough for me.

Somewhere out there on the web is a video of Mario Proulx gluing a back on with HHG. It is excellent. It shows that it only requires practice and a steady hand. NO rushing is involved, only deliberate and efficient motions, that are well practiced, without glue before starting. No fiddling allowed. Get the shop and the parts warm, and you have a good couple of minutes of working time. It's a lot of time if you are efficient.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Mario using hide glue and go-bar deck-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2SuYAYJ5oQ&NR=1

Thanks, John. I just didn't have the impetus to go look for it!

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I don't use hot (standard) hide glue all that much, but I wonder about the 'planed surfaces' requirement.
I note that people are sanding the curve on the bottom of braces using radius dishes (which usually have pretty coarse grit paper on them). If they are gluing with HHG, are they then finishing those curves with a plane?

I use fish glue for most joints where I'd be tempted to use HHG, but it is much slower to set up, so that can be a factor (for good or ill).
I generally make a point of giving flat surfaces (like plate surfces) a very light scrape before gluing; I'm not sure this is necessary but it does help to remove dust and perhaps oxidation. ?

Cheers
John

Here is another good video of Rudie Blazer gluing on a guitar top using Hide Glue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEkGIGhHckU&feature=related

Regarding the planed surfaces, I don't think it is imperative that you use a planed surface, I just think that for gluing joints using hot hide glue (and I'm sure the same goes for titebond) a planed surface is best, and a freshly planed surface is apparently even better. This is just what I have heard, but it seems to make sense.

I checked out both of the videos and the interesting thing is they both had full clamp pressure applied within 2 1/2 min of starting application of glue. Rudie was slower and more methodical with glue application and clamped quickly with his press and Mario was quite quick with the glue bottle and took more time to apply the gobars, but the actual time was almost the same. Their shop temperature could not have been too hot as both were dressed with warm heavy cloths.

I don't think I am quite that fast yet so I think I will be fishing not hiding when it comes to gluing tops and backs, I need the slower glue. I wonder if a press like Rudie's could be made with a couple of the screws like we use in the Fox benders. I also like the lazy susan he has on his work table, I think I might copy that for my gobar deck it would be easier to turn than to walk around and I don't have a lot of space so I could move it to a corner of the shop.

Fred

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Fred Tellier
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I say start out using hide glue and never look back. You don't have to use it for everything, but it's easy to use for braces and most small gluing activities. Things that take longer open times, use something else, Fish, LMI White, etc. If you use it right away, the mystery is gone!

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Nothing "wrong" with the sanded surface I suppose, it's just agreed that planed is better. Most guys run, what, 80 grit or so on their radius dishes? If you looked at 80 grit at a microscopic level, I think you'd be surprised what it does to your surface gluing area. Heck, you don't need a microscope, just look at linings when they come off the dish. I profile my rims like most folks here in a radius dish then just hit the rim with a scraper just before gluing. Quick and simple and covers all the bases. Easier on reverse kerf or solid linings.

Like Waddy says, I used hide on my very first build and for that very reason. I figured if I learned to work with it right off the bat, I wouldn't have to "re-learn" it later. Haven't regretted it one bit. As is often advised here, just set up well and make a dry run before gluing to make sure you have no surprises. I personally think we build a little too much fear in guys trying hide the first time. It's really not hard to use with a little bit of preparation. The videos posted show that very well.

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Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

Yeah, I think we make much too much of the mysteries of HHG. I believe we have over analyzed it, and created too much hype over it. The "Old Masters" didn't sit around with a thermometer in the glue pot watching to make sure it didn't get too hot. They stuck their finger in the glue. If hot enough it's liquid, and you can put your finger in it without getting scalded, but you can't leave it in there long. if too cold you can leave your finger in it. Easy to check. When it got too thick, they added water, when to low, they soaked some more granules and added it to the pot, and waited till it was hot again, when the day was over, they took it off the fire. Mystery solved!

I'm not saying we shouldn't use care, and thermometers. I'm just saying it's much easier to use than it's made out to be. And, if you ask me, and you didn't, it's easier to use than some other glues that we seem to go to more often. Clean up couldn't be any easier than it is with hide glue. Wait a few minutes, and scrape up the gel. It lifts right off the surface. Yes, you have to mix it, but that's easy enough, some glue, cover with water plus a bit, let sit, heat, cool until the next day, heat and use. Also, no shelf life for the granules. It's cheaper than most anything out there.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I've never used anything except hot hide glue, but I would think a fresh surface, and good fitting joint would be important reguardless of glue.

For closing the box I put 3 grams of salt in 28 grams of glue/water mix. (10 grams glue, 18 grams water) This extends the open time. Experiment on scrap it you're going to do this. Our scales may be different. I'll time myself the next time I close one. I doubt I'd be faster than Mario.

Disclaimer, I use CA for various stuff, and I use epoxy to attach the fingerboard to the neck, and for neck laminations. HHG is the only "wood" glue I have.

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