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After fretting a few boards with SS frets, I was thinking of using them exclusively. They remain shiny and have that highly polished look all the time. I understand that they also will never wear out, which should be good for the player. I really like the look and feel but wanted to hear others' opinions as well. While I found them to be totally different from standard material, it just takes getting used to...something we often are faced with in this craft.

My intent for this post is to get comments from those with more experience than me so that I can make a final decision as to exclusivity. TIA

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

As a player I'm not crazy about them. The leave little rings on the strings if you leave strings on too long. (as a player, I leave strings on wayyyyyy too long) Sometimes I think they make the tone kinda.....pingy, but I know, from blindfold tests there's no difference in tone, at least not that I can hear. They're OK to install on new work, but can be a nightmare on re-frets. Preparation before fretting is the key, and a new board is easier to get straight and level. I charge a $75 upcharge for SS frets on a new build, and $125 on a re fret. I have no idea what others charge.

I love LMI's "gold" fret wire. IMHO it's the right hardness. I wish the same material was available without the gold color. Gold frets look funny on some guitars.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

I'm with you......doesn't look right on all guitars......or guitars with nickel or chrome hardware.

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

I don't care for them as a player or builder as they do nothing for tone and are hard on strings and tools.

Y'all make it very hard to just lurk over here when you spew stuff like that around... but I'll admit, it is funny!

As a player who's now been playing SS frets since 2005, I feel no difference, hear no difference, and string wear is -better- than it was with nickel sliver frets, likely because nickel silver itself tarnishes and that may lead to quicker death for string wrappings. I also see LESS string warp indenting of old strings, and I'm one to leave strings on for 5-6 months of daily playing, and have publicly stated my constant struggle with the death-grip my left hand can't seem to not do.... I ascribe the better wear to a higher degree of polish that these frets can attain, and maintain indefinitely. If you're truly seeing more physical wear, find someone to polish those suckers up. As for tone, well.... I've never told a soul I was going to use SS fretwire when I switched, and not a soul mentioned a tone change. Now that the words' out, many have asked if they have SS frets or not, and when told yes, they do, they're surprised that they couldn't tell the difference. Yes, even on refret jobs.... The only way to kill any placebo effect was to not tell them, and I now have 4 years of this behind me. I am sure that if told, most everybody would have heard/felt/seen something wrong with the frets, but since they knew not what I did, my feedback is as perfectly non-discriminatory and honest as can be possible to achieve. And we have yet to see any wear on any of them.

As a guitar builder, my goal is to maintain an open mind and find the best materials and use them to the best of my abilities and provide it to my clients without excuses, without folklore and without urban legends skewing the view. As my own client, I'm happy I do the above!

My experience has been similar to Mario's. I've been using them for several years now. I leave strings on for a long time on my personal guitar (like 8 months or so because my skin never seems to tarnish the strings) and notice absolutely no string "issues" relating to SS frets. There might be a small difference in tone (I seriously doubt it) but I simply haven't heard it. I think it is a far more rational opinion to view the kind/brand of strings having a vastly more significant tonal affect.

The only precaution I would mention is that SS frets have stricter requirements for installation. If you use a bound fretboard, you need to make certain that the binding isn't too wide and that you have enough tang remaining or the SS frets might not seat correctly. In other words, they aren't as maleable so they need to be installed perfectly. Perhaps this is where the "ping sounding" comment comes from. If a fret isn't properly seated, the note will not ring correctly and would likely sound thin. I can also see how a refret would be much harder to seat SS frets correctly. I would highly recommend making sure that the tang will grab in the slot effectively in such cases.

I simply can't see a downside to SS frets and I believe they feel much nicer and certainly last longer.

Thanks for the feedback...and a special "welcome back if only for a pass through" to the Old Grumpster!

One thing I have not yet tried is a bound FB. Anybody do one of those...how was it to cut the tang? I doubt that the SM tang cutter would be enough for this...but was thinking of using Dremel cut off wheels.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

4+ years of SS has not slowed my 11 year old SM fret tang nipper.... dang thing's one tough tool! Hard on the wrists, though. We're discussing workarounds for this on the Cafe right now...

Good stuff but tuff on the tools and wrists... I don't use it for those reasons.

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

I admitted the "pingy" tone was in my imagination........but it's hard to imagine rings around the strings. String marks at the frets aren't a big deal. I have stainless steel frets on my personal guitars, even my old D18. I use D'addario strings, maybe some other brands are immune to these marks.

Again, I don't believe I'm imagining the fret marks on my strings. I know that I'm not an "expert" but I can see.

I've never tried my SM tang nipper. I assumed the SS fret would kill it. I'll start using it.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

In theory it should lead to greater or faster string wear. I think that's quite logical considering it's a much harder material than standard Nickel Silver fretwire. Whether that theory has any real practical relevance I've no idea. It could be that the difference is so miniscule that for practical purposes it's irrelevant.
The respective levels of polish or shine will have no bearing on string wear. Nickel Silver can be polished to the same grit as Stainless Steel - it just doesn't reflect light in the same manner.

I think how the fret was leveled ,rounded and dressed is going to be a factor in string wear rather than rockwell hardness.
I dunno if its any help, but here's a link to Ed Romans site with an article on stainless vs nickle vs gold alloy. http://www.edroman.com/techarticles/stainlessfrets.htm . Ed is a man of strong opinion and deals with loads of masterfully built guitars everyday. Love him or hate him, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

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Anything too stupid to be said is sung. -Voltaire

The respective levels of polish or shine will have no bearing on string wear.

Disagree. A rougher surface is always more abrasive than a smoother surface, and since string windings are a rather soft alloy, they will be affected by the surface they come in contact with. And a hard material can always be polished to a higher, finer degree than a softer material, and hold that polish. No different than some steels can be taken to a sharper edge and hold it longer than others.

But hey, I don't sell the stuff, so use what y'all wish to use; just don't go around spewing second hand BS as fact, because that only misinforms and misleads everyone who comes along. If you don't like using something because it hurts you, or it's tough to use, then fine, don't, and don't apologize for it; use the best you can use and you've done the best you can, but do not invent reasons/excuses that are unfounded, as that is simply doing everyone else a disservice and completely undermines any usefulness a forum such as this may have.

Seems Ed is not only opinionated but also quite prepared to replace a reality with his own version when ever he feels the need.

" A Taylor is a bolt on neck guitar, Not a good thing on an Acoustic, It will never mellow with age and it will always sound too bright."

Where in Ed's world did that nonsense come from? If that is any indication of the level of his understanding of acoustics, I would not bother paying too much attention to his opinions.

Cheers

Kim

I do agree with ED Roman on most of his rants.Partically when it comes to stainless frets.And yes, the worst sounding guitar i ever played was also a Parker fly with ss frets.Funny he mentioned that as well.I never knew they were just glued to the board without a tang.I like stainless steel exhaust on my cars (they all have it).But never on my guitars.To hard and brittle when it comes to tone.I like a nice fat sounding guitar.

I DON'T SPEW BS!!!!!!!!! I never have, and never will.
I guess it's possible that comment wasn't directed at me. My strings develop marks (I called them rings, but I'm not sure they go all the way around the strings) after 6 weeks or so on the guitars that have SS frets. I'll post a picture in a couple more weeks when these marks develop. I said, I use D'addario strings. I also said, maybe different brands or types of strings don't do this. I guess it could be climate related, or even related to my fretwork.

Just because someone has a different opinion doesnt' mean they're wrong. Anyone who's done this for more than a month or 2 should know. There's no absolutes in luthrie.

There's also nothing wrong with being nice, reguardless your experience level.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

Grumpy. What I meant by that comment was that if you polish both materials ie. Nickel Silver and Stainless Steel to say 2,000 G, the string will 'see' the material as being the same, at least in terms of the polished surface. - I don't know, perhaps I'm wrong on that.

I am with Grumpy on this, he is extremely well repected in this craft by builders and players alike for good reason. He also probably builds more highly sort after guitars in one year than a lot will do during their whole involment in the craft of lutherie. I wonder how many guitars Ed Roman has under his belt??

Anyhow, I just can't see how a SS 'fret' could have any real impact on tone. Just like a zero fret it's simply forms the take off point of the viabrating string. Unlike the saddle, it's at the other end of the real bussiness and to my mind does not have much of an opertunity to impart any effect on tone be that posative, or negative.

Because time is money, I can understand how some who are heavily involved in the business side of lutherie, could form a prejudice against SS in regards to tool wear and workability, and once you set your mind against something it becomes very easy to grab at what ever you can to discredit it even if it is not all that acurate. Maybe that prejudice and the power of suggestion is enough to plant the seed of discontent which, like so many things in this craft, grows into a rambling vine of unsubstantiated hearsay among those who don't realy know any better.

Cheers

Kim

Woody...if you observe the string indentations first hand, then it's NOT second hand BS. My personal opinion is that such string wear might be more related to player technique and possibly even body chemistry.

My take was that the BS claim was more directed at the dude who wrote the article. Grumpy, as well as many others rightly doesn't suffer such pontification lightly, so rebuttal is often short and sweet. Critical thinking...it's a good thing!

Welcome back, Mario!

Back to the subject at hand...As far as alternate tools are concerned, I used the common cutoff Dremel wheels to cut the frets to size and then later filed them flush to the FB as I have always done. It takes longer to file but I actually welcome the extra time to sneek up on the final shape and surface.

I mount the Dremel in a vise and move the wire into the spinning disc. A few seconds and it's cut nice and smooth. It uses up 2 discs per fret job. I happen to use MicroMesh to polish my frets and taking it to 12,000 grit made these shine beautifully.

I can't say I notice any change in tone or even personal feel...and I'm certainly not going to go by any second hand reports that I have not personally evaluated.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

If I may interrupt the very entertaining and informative vituperation concerning stainless-steel frets...

There was a mention of using 12000-grit Micromesh to polish frets. If my 3-year-old guitar has a couple of spots where the fret wire isn't quite as polished as elsewhere, would it be better to shine those spots with 000 steel wool or Micromesh 12000?

Better in terms of shining up with the least time and effort but mostly better in terms of "safer" so as not to remove a significant amount of material and have a low spot.

Just a point... I notice wear marks on my strings pretty quickly, and I'm not using SS frets. Just standard Stew Mac wire. The one common with Woody??? D'Addario strings. Hhhmmmm...

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Rob

I know I can get a good polish from putting a cloth wheel on my dremel and using polishing compounds. I mask the fretboard with taped down razor blades or old broken feeler gauge blades.Take it gently and don't heat the fret up more than the wood (or glue if you do) wants. Play with the speeds a bit while practicing on a fret in your vice.I do use 0000 wool before that.

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Anything too stupid to be said is sung. -Voltaire

hey guys i found a site that supplys heavy duty tang nippers for ss frets
the handles seem a bit longer too which would make it less harsh on the wrists
i found it when i typed in
Home - best EuroSpruce: MoonSpruce + other Tonewoods

On every guitar I've owned (I think they have all had typical nickel silver fretwire), my strings always get little indentations/wear marks on wound strings, over the frets where I play most frequently. Unless I was using strings that were harder than the fret wire, that is what I would expect. The phosphor bronze windings get worn at the frets, and the frets get worn on the high B and E (unwound, steel) strings. I change strings pretty often, when I'm inspired to play frequently.

Woody, if you have a nickel silver fretted guitar to compare, check the strings when they come off. If I change strings relatively quickly (a few days of playing), I often cannot see the worn spots on the phosphor bronze windings - until the strings come off. Then it is easy to see the spots.

I'm not surprised at Mario's conclusion that no one can hear any difference in fretwire used. I would guess that it would take something much softer than any of the commonly used fretwire alloys to make an audible difference.

Glad to know that the StewMac fret tang nipper is up to the task (of trimming SS fretwire tangs.)

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia