Official Luthiers Forum!

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How good is good enough ... well, it has to do the job its intended for. A cheap jointer will be just fine if it actually joints something flat. If it snipes at the end, and you cant adjust the thing to get rid of that, then its junk. Sometimes you dont find that out until you get the thing home.

There are those who can cut a 2x4 square with a handsaw, blindfolded. I am not one of them. I am not bad at using a jack plane to flatten a board, but prefer to use my jointer - its not the best, but its set up to work, and thats all that counts. I have a lot of jigs that arent pretty, but they work. I have a friend who builds his jigs like they will be in musuem someday.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

I don't want my tools to be nicer than what I'm making with them.

www.guitarsbydavidlaplante.com

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I always subscribe to the philosophy "buy right, or buy twice" and it has worked for me so far. That doesn't always mean "most expensive", but as pointed out, must do the job it was intended to do as accurately and consistently as possible.

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"Everyone wants to BE something, but nobody wants to BECOME something" - William Cumpiano

My philosophy is to get tools, usually, only as I need them and then to get a good quality tool that will do the job.

Generally the result of using simpler tools is that it takes longer to do a good job and its often easier to make mistakes. I make jigs for some things because I don't want to spend the time it would take to do it with simple hand tools. A good example would be my binding and rosette cutting jigs. On the other hand, I use chisels a lot because I like to use them.

Some builders seem to get great satisfaction from collecting and using the high-dollar 'boutique' type hand tools and other builders seem to want to mechanize everything. If you are trying to make a living building anything then the driving force becomes working quickly and efficiently while maintaining the quality and tolerances you set for your product.

Pick your path, enjoy, and more power to you

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I am in no way qualified to answer this question, being so "green" to this building thing (but I'll give my thoughts anyway).

There are builders like Cumpiano and Kinkade who have written amazing books about how to build guitars and for the most part, their tools are standard woodworking tools you could find at the old-style hardware stores. With practice, these will obviously get the job done. Not necessarily specialized luthier tools, but solid and well-made woodworking tools. Then you cross the line into the luthier tools that are sold by LMI and StewMac. One example I can think of is the SaddleMatic, which adjusts to the scale length of any guitar and allows for compensation. A good tool to have, but an accurate ruler would do the job too. At $35, it is your call as to whether it is "worth it". These same suppliers sell end mills, go bars, and clamps that you could buy elsewhere for a third the price. Either way you go (general purpose tools or specialized "luthier tools"), you are bound to get the job done and should have tools that last you a lifetime.

The flip side is buying "cheapies" from a no-name brand (there is probably a reason you haven't heard of them) or a store's private label. With these, you risk getting a tool that will eventually fail. In some cases, that is okay. An example I can think of is clamps. For most of my work, I use Jorgensen clamps but I have a handful of 99 cent spring clamps that are bound to pop a spring eventually but they get the job done. I use the heck out of those things but at a dollar a piece, I won't be heart-broken when they die. If I had the same philosophy about a block plane, things would be different when the mechanism breaks and gouges a nice top I am working on or when the bit slips in the cheap collet of a $30 laminate trimmer and ruins a set of sides.

The one thing I can suggest is to read, read, read about what other builders are using and to be patient... Most of what you will need can be found at flea markets and antique malls if you take the time to look.

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Don't confront me with my failures--I have not forgotten them.

It is a good topic , as quality is defined by the tooling doing the job that it was designed to do. With this philosophy all tools should be a quality tools but we know this isn't true. My advice is always by the best you can afford. So how do you know you are getting a good tool? Well places like Harbor freight are a total crap shoot , you may buy something that is great today and the next one is useless. I will admit to using many of the bar clamps , they work well for what I need. Anything with a motor is suspect. They save money by not doing proper metal stress treatments and the run out tolerance on the bearings is not what you would find on a name brand tool.
Things like planes chisels etc are cutting tools and the edges are heat treated for best sharpening and life. Steel quality is not all the same and the steel alloys are countless. What steel is in the tool may not the the steel needed. All this adds to the cost and in most cases , this is let out of the process so you get a tool that looks like a chisel but is more like a can opener. Price is not always indicative to quality. So again , what is a good tool . That is hard to answer. I buy most of my tools at flea markets and look for name brands like Stanley Underwood Etc. Electric tools are a bit harder but pick it up and feel it . Quality tools have a feel in most cases . Balance , fit , etc. Get a tool that will do the job you want it to do. You don't need a 5 hp router . Router bits , again needed tools but just because it says CARBIDE doesn't mean it is good carbide. I find these at suppliers that feed industry. Even craftsman bits are going more for price than quality and in most cases you can find them as cheap in industrial supply houses .
You will soon forget the price but you will always remember the quality. In all my years of tool acquisition I can tell you that more often than not , the cheaper tool was more costly . It didn't do the job well , required more attention for bad workmanship and when the life of the tool was short and it had to be replaced by the original tool that I was looking at , and at a higher cost than what it was when I bought the cheapie. So buy the best you can afford.
Cutting corners in only good if you want to radius it .

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Point taken on whether something can do the job, and in the end, the same quality of finish can be had with a cheaper gun - but at what cost ???

So, take my Sata minijet 4 .. cost me about 465 Cdn. I had already spent over 250 on a couple other guns that did an adequate job, if you liked sanding out more orange peel (the CH HVLP gun), or wasting more finish on overspray (the CH high pressure touch up gun - it also had the problem of when something broke, which it did a couple times, you had to buy a whole new gun to get the part for it - the parts they did sell were only seals/springs). Using a higher pressure also means the compressor runs more, and that costs money too.

So in the long run, you will end up paying for the Sata .. either in sandpaper and time to get rid of more orange peel, or in wasted finish in overspray from the high pressure gun. Sometimes its how you look at it. For me, its one of the smartest purchases I have made.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

I don't know if a I have a philosophy about this, but I think David LaPlante has the right idea. I am reminded of skiing novices (foreigners, usually ) with brand new, expensive gear falling all over themselves trying to get on the ski lift. What could be more pathetic? I do like nice tools though, but my preference often goes to older stuff, both with hand tools and stationary machines. Part of that has to do with price, part is I like to tinker with stuff anyways, and part of it is probably the same reason I don’t like my jeans until they are well worn, whatever the reason for that could be.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

As a, certifiable, do it yourselfer, I tend to buy tools based on "Will it do the job, and how often am I going to use it?" There are good, low priced, tools that will accomplish a job a few times, but will fail if used every day. There are also good tools that will work right every day, all day, and they are in the higher expense range, usually. If i'm doing a job that I probably won't do more than once every few years, I often opt for the cheap, get it done tool. If I'm going to use it often, cordless drill, plane, chisel, screwdriver, etc., I'll buy a good one. I have only been sorry a couple of times for buying top of the line. The disadvantage is in cordless tools, often discontinued for new models, replacement parts, i.e., batteries, are sometimes discontinued too. I have about come to the conclusion that buying top of the line in Cordless tools, might be a rip-off, for that reason. The batteries have too short a life, and the tool will outlive the batteries, but replacing the batteries costs as much as a new tool.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I subscribe to the buy it once and buy it right philosophy. As a new builder, when faced with a situation such as I need tool A and tool B, but tool A is more important and I could probably get by without tool B for a bit longer, I will buy the best tool A that I can afford and save to buy tool B later, instead of buying mediocre tool A and B. If that makes sense.
I also recently have been in deep thought about the environment impact of this North American rampant consumerism. Every item and tool made and purchased is made out of the earths resources, in which there is only limited quantities. It also takes a certain amount of resources to deliver the items to the retailers. I would much rather buy a great bandsaw that I know will last me years and years, and do without a few other items I need for a while, than buy an okay one that I know I will want to replace later on but have all the other tools too (basically the same as the previous paragraph I know).
I think we all need to start to think like this. People dont give this planet the respect it deserves.

I don't think there's a single answer to the question. It all depends on what you're doing with each tool. For instance, I bought a cheap Grizzly edge sander because I only use it for radiusing fretboards and shaping necks. I just couldn't justify something more than twice the price when I only use it every couple of months.

But my table saw gets used every day and I can justify putting money there.

It's hard to justify industrial quality tools in a one person shop. If I were re-sawing 6 days a week, I'd buy the best saw on the market. Since it's more like 6 days a year for me, I make do with one that works.

And although you usually get what you pay for, that's not always the case. My neighbor bought a really nice Delta edge sander and the motor had problems and it was a nightmare to get fixed. They eventually fixed in on warranty but he was without a tool for weeks and spent many hours messing with it.

Which brings up another point....servicing. I'm more likely to buy Grizzly because I live 5 minutes away from a warehouse. I can get a part same day.

The best tool values for my use :

-Shelix cutter in my jointer. Not only is it quieter and less likely to tear out figured wood, it will pay for itself in sharpening savings.

-17" Grizzly Extreme band saw. A nice 17" saw for about the price of a 14" Powermatic.

-Tormek sharpener, used and about 1/2 price on craigslist.

-$30 machine shop turned spindle for a spindle sander in my drill press. It works better than a real one because you can move the table out of the way and have room for shaping heels.

-Porter Cable laminate trimmer that lasted 20 years and was still going strong when I dropped it on the concrete floor!

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

I have changed my philosophy about tools and jigs and such...

It borders on the Padma's "IF it gets the pig clean, use it" statement.

I had a hard time realizing: The finished work is more important than the jigs and tools...
There is a BIG difference between the WRONG tool for the job.. and a Cheap tool that will do the job! I am not above clobbering together some sort of temporary jig to do a job or buying a cheap tool to see if it would do a better job for some operation.

But... once I have done the job a couple times with various iterations of clobbered together jigs, fixtures, and cheap tools... I find I may need something better... I will have learned something from the temporary jigs and cheap tools... I will make/buy a better one suited to the work at hand.

For example... trying to use a Festool circular saw to cut binding channels is obviously not a good idea... but a cheap router in theory could do the job. It may need a new collet... but a router is the correct tool for the job.

Buy some cheap tools. Try to get "The right tool for the job" rather than the most expensive tool that isn't suited to the job. Learn to sharpen and to line up cuts properly... That 1st round of tools will be ruined by poor techniques and improper use... Once those skills are developed.. move on up to better tools that are capable of performing at the higher level.

Thanks

John

I usually "cut the baby in half". I don't buy the least or most expensive of tools. A used Record plane instead of a Lie Nielson, for example.

As for luthierie specific tools, I use the "ooohh!" approach. I look through the LMI or StewMac catalog and every once in a while I see a new tool that makes me say "ooohh!". At that point everything is out of my hands and just have to buy it. I'm batting about 50% with this technique. I found the saddlematic more trouble than it is worth but the fret spacing rule is a complete joy to use and I wonder how I lived without it. Some tools are essential and don't seem to exist anywhere else. Nut files, for example.

Too bad, David, 'cause you're going to have to buy the best tools!



As for this great thread:

A photography teacher said once, "Bad information is worse than no information." I think this applies sometimes to tools, especially those on the bottom of the food chain.

I'm not doing production, so I have the luxury of waiting for the right tool to appear on ebay or Craigslist, and have gotten some great deals on good tools, especially these days with so many contractors—kitchen cabinet, carpenters and so on—going under, sad though it is. While waiting for those tools to appear, I was forced to learn plate thicknessing with planes and scrapers, brush on varnish instead of spraying, fine tuning planes, etc. They've been invaluable lessons, and have served well in using the tools I've acquired that make those processes quicker, more accurate, and easier on the old bones. One thing I've learned about hand work though: making a split-second mistake with a backsaw is not likely to be as disastrous as making one with a tablesaw.

Some tools I bought on the cheap, just to get by, knowing that I'd be replacing them. My first lam trimmer was just such an animal. It was $50 and I built 5 good guitars with it, but it went on Craigslist after I got a good one. Also, the longer I wait, the better my buying decisions seem to be, as I learn about issues concerning various tools, or better yet, which ones are the "gold standard" for a particular type of tool. Porter-Cable lam trimmers and routers come to mind here. Fortunately, five years after starting to build guitars, I have few regrets about the choices I've made.

I have not yet been able to justify venturing into the "luxury" end yet, such as Festool and Lie-Nielsen. Maybe someday, but for now I'm content with my Porter-Cables and old Stanley planes.

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

One rule I have is never buy used electrical tools with small motors, or if you do, make sure they are 'near new', from experience.

Lutheri demands absurd accuracy, but if you want to make your own tools, you are free to do so. You dont need a lie nielsen plane to joint, but you DO have to flatten the sole of your $35.00 ebay Stanley, and redo the blade, which takes time. Better to get a $60.00 Stanley from a guy who kept it tuned and flat.

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Here is what a Parlor Guitar is for!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEa8PkjO6_I

Having had little experience with tools of any kind before beginning to work on guitars I have been learning on the go. Most of the tools I have purchased have been on the extreme low end of the scale due to cost and space. I have made do with them and most certainly paid for it in extra time spent but it has been a valuable education using these sub-par tools to learn firsthand about what is actually important on a more expensive and higher quality version. I will eventually replace them all and having used these lower quality tools I am much more sure about what I require in a nicer version. I am not advocating other people take this route but I am glad that it worked out how it did for me.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Tools eh...well

Do the best you can
with
what ya got
with were you at
when its going down.

Don't takes no credit,
don't be blaming your tools.
and just remember
"If it gets the pig clean...use it."

That's the Padmas take on tools....and just about anything else for that matter.




the
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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I'm in the midst of building my first, so take these thoughts for what they're worth. I have a beautiful L-N 4.5 that was the first really good tool I ever owned. I didn't need a thickness sander-I took my back, my front, and my sides down to exactly where I wanted them, just with the L-N. No scrapers. No tear-out. No problems.

Having the right tool made a huge difference.

They're not cheap, but with L-N, you really do get what you pay for. And it is a real joy to work with good tools.

Steve

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I don't know how old many of you builders are,but I started in 1954. You could not even buy frets,unless you got lucky and found a bundle in some music store. No side bending irons,no BOOKS,no nothing. And NOBODY who had ever built a guitar to tell you how to do anything (like how to bend sides).

I was in Alaska,in Ketchikan,when I started building. They had a big spruce mill there. I was unable to get a decent piece of quartered Sitka spruce there,because they were sending 2 million board feet of wood to rebuild Korea at the time. Plus,they didn't quarter saw anything. Just cut straight through the logs.

We moved down to Va. in 1957,and the first place I found where I could get parts was from Carvin Guitars in Covina,California. They sold pickups and other parts back then. Think they've moved now,and just sell finished products. I saw my first guitar building book in 1959. It was put out by Clifford Essex music co. in England. They had a builder there named Marco Roccio (sp?) It was not much of a book,but did have some useful information. The guitars were not great that he made. When I was in Alaska,though,it was still a territory. They used to send some pretty big artists to the schools up there. I guess to try to get some culture to the young people. Theodore Bickel( been a long time! sp?) came there,playing a Clifford Essex classical guitar,and singing. Annamaria Albergotti,a well known opera star came up,and several other performers.

This is wandering. I am talking about living in a vacuum,unable to get much of anything,and having no money to get it with anyway. I couldn't bend sides decently the first year. I soaked them,and bent them,but they wrinkled badly when drying. So,for the first few years,I made solid body electrics until I got information on how to bend the sides.

Now,everything is available so readily. You guys are lucky to be starting out now,if you ARE starting out now.

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[quote="Filippo MorelliMy tool acquisition theory is simple - great tools are a pleasure. I wish I could afford more hand made tools from folks like Dave Jeske at Blue Spruce Toolworks, or blades from Hock or more Lie-Nielsen stuff. There is a lot to be said for support those in the craft. It's not cheap to buy them, but then again how many of your are selling guitars that you made for $500?

Filippo[/quote]

There probably aren't many selling their guitars for $500, but I don't know of many that are getting wealthy building guitars. It's probably one of the most highly skilled and lowest paid vocations out there. I'm sure there are a few exceptions where the cost isn't an issue, but for many it is.

In any case, I agree with the idea of buying tools that are good enough. I've experienced the downside of buying some inexpensive tools that did not work as well as I wanted. They worked, sort of, but I did replace them with something better. On the other hand, I have also purchased some highly acclaimed, and expensive, tools that I regretted buying. While these were great tools, I honestly could have done just as well with much less expensive tools and I regretted spending the extra money on something, that for me, brought little added benefit, other than bragging rights.

Tools are a personal thing....to some, it's like collecting works of art and they want the best that they can get. Others just want something that will get the job done.

I am essentially a novice handtool user (couple years), but an experienced woodworker.... so when it came time to buy handtools, I bought the best I could.. and while some say the best versus the most expensive..
I find that the more expensive generally equate to the best usually, as tool making (as with anything else) is a very competitive market and its hard to price above what a tool is truly worth...
Buying vintage is another matter with its own pitfalls and advantages and is a topic in itself.... when the idea of new tools and older tools come up together the water always gets muddy... so Im gonna stick to talking about new tools!

Im finding it comes down to material quality and finish in the tools you buy... I bought two sets of bench chisels - Swiss Pfiel chisels and hand forged German LMI chisels... The hand forged German chisels are clearly superior - high polished.... and that was reflected in the price,,, they hold an edge way better and are just 50% sexier... with cocbolo looking handles (I think its actually that some type of Indian wood that LMI sells for handles - I dunno though)
WHat Im getting at is that I have never been dissapointed when I recieved a nice tool even if I paid alot for it -
Lie Nielsen planes, expensive? Not for what you get IMHO... you can use them right out of the box... thought youd be wise to set them up to your liking and once over the blade on some fine stones,,,
ANyhow I built some of my tools also - small planes, jigs, and such..
Having nice tools to make them made all the difference in them turning out nice themselves...
It amounts to a chain reaction - nice tools = work nice = nice work...
Crap tools = frustration = not the best work a man can do... as mindset when performing an operation is half the battle..
Ive rambled on enough so Im gonna stop now.... Ive made my point...
Cheers
Charlie