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I just have some questions about my setups. I am not really happy with the action and setup on my guitars and I just want to find out what I could be missing. It's really getting frustrating because it seems like no matter how hard I try I can't be satisfied with it. The problem is not the way the guitar feels or plays, it's that is buzzes to easy. I have another guitar that is a factory made and it seems that you can play it harder with less buzzing. For a while I thought it was unlevel frets so now I go to great lengths to make sure they are level. I have the long narrow metal fret/fingerboard leveler from stew-mac and I stick 320-grit paper to it. I also draw a line on top of each fret and make certain every fret has been sanded. When I am finished I check my fret with my straight edge and a back light down the center of the fingerboard. Every fret 1-14 touches. Sometime 15 touches to and then it starts dropping of with fallaway. That way I eliminate the chance of a rise from the fingerboard. I have my bass string set at about 5/64" above the 12 fret. I have the nut set at....well I can't remember off the top of my head but it's not a problem cause it's not open strings that buzz. The truss rod is set with very little relief. Maybe 1/64. I could check better. But it just seems no matter what I do I can't get it to play fairly hard without buzzing. Does anybody else have any problem like this? I have wondered all kinds of things. It could not be the responsiveness of the guitar effecting it could it? Is there any chance my neck is doing something funny? I use Hot Rod truss rods in them. Is there anyway I can really check and eliminate the possibility of any hump or rise AFTER the guitar is tuned up.

I thought I'd include the way I do my leveling in fretting just incase it matters.
I attach the unfretted but fully shaped and carved neck to the body with bolts. I put double sided tape under the fingerboard extension. I use my fret/fingerboard leveler and sand the fingerboard dead level. Then I take the neck off and fret it. Then proceed with finishing the guitar. Then after attaching the neck permanently and gluing down the extension I sand all my frets level and usually have no trouble getting them perfectly level very quickly. Then of course I round the frets and crown them and polish them. And my guitars sound so good. Except I can never feel satisfied with my action. It's like my old stiff, not so good sounding factory guitar has better action because I can play it harder with less buzzing.

Anyways sorry this is so long. It's just I have read up on action and setups. I have researched it and I have tried my hardest. But I still feel like it could be better.
Any tips, ideas, info, would be greatly appreciated.

Your neck may be bending unevenly when the strings are tensioned up to pitch. So just place a straightedge on it when it is strung up to see what is going on.

Colby,

It sounds like you have everything covered. 5/64 action on the low E seems to be right at the miminum for me too. I usually end up at 5.25/64 to 5.5/64 on low E so I can play a little harder with around .008 relief. The only thing I can think of that you did not mention is the string gauge and type used on your guitar vs the factory. As you know the string tensions vary...
One more thing, I have been thinking on switching to a compound radius to get the action just a little lower...something to consider.

Chuck

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What strings are buzzing? I have more relief on the bass strings than the trebles.

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Ken Franklin
clumsy yet persistent
https://www.kenfranklinukulele.com

I am using the same type/gauge of string on both guitars.
I wonder if my neck could be bending unevenly somehow? When I lay the straight edge on it when strung up it looks normal. Only touches on the ends though because of relief. Maybe I should straighten the neck while it's strung up and look at it under the straight edge.
The only string that don't really buzz are little E and B. I think all the others pretty much buzz when played hard and at the right spots. The buzzing really makes you think "hump" somewhere, I just can't figure out why or how.
My mind keeps drifting back to the stew-mac neck jig...I know I should put that thought out of my mind though. Just another expensive toy to solve all my problems and make life a better thing...

That will tell you a lot.

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

My first thought is to examine your fret crowning technique after you level the frets. If you're inadvertently taking any material off the tops of the frets as you crown, you could end up with some lower than others. Even final sanding/polishing of the frets, if over-done, can turn level frets into frets that are no longer quite level.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

5/64th (and I assume 3.64 high E) is pretty low. 1/64th relief would be .015. That's quite a bit if you use the whole neck. .008 might be better. If the buzz is when you play above the 7th fret maybe less relief would help. The other thing is you are not leveling under simulated string tension.
I don't have a Stew Mac jig but I have found that putting 6lbs of wt. on each shoulder of the upper bout and supporting the peghead gives a neck position very close to being strung up with lights on my guitars.
This is what I currently have evolved into. Seems to work fine but I'm always changing
1. Put some tension on the truss rod and level the fretboard with the neck shaped and on the guitar. Sand about .010 fall away onto the extension. With carbon bars and a stiff neck I think it's important to level under truss rod tension to be sure you can get adequate relief later.

2. Fret the neck. This usually results in a little hump at the apex which is OK.

3. Set the guitar up with the peghead supported and 6 lbs of wt. on each shoulder and adjust the truss rod to get the neck as flat as possible from 1-14

4. Level the frets under this simulated string tension by marking the tops with magic marker and sanding until all have been touched. I've used both the StewMac bars or an old #5 plane body ala Frank Ford. I don't do well with the radiused cauls for leveling.

5. String up, let it settle in, check and if needed fine tune under string tension with the technique using the L shaped aluminum extrusions with sandpaper and the neck as flat as possible using the truss rod.

Just one way, I'm sure there are many others that work just as well. Good luck.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Not sure exactly what kind of guitar you have and what "style" you're playing but, for me, 5 64ths at the low E is really, really, really low. I'm a bluegrasser/fiddle tune guy and 7 64ths is about as low as I can go with 5.5 64ths on the high E. G and D have to stay at 6-6.5 for me. I use medium/lites.

I have a friend who has a Taylor with similar action to what you're mentioning and it plays like butter, however, he plays light to extra light strings. String it up with mediums or med/lites and no way to keep it from buzzing. As an aside, his guitar is in no way equipped to play bluegrass as far as my taste. Maybe for jazz or something else but it can't handle any "runs".

I've done many, many setups and it is frustrating trying to dial it in really low and silky with no buzz. Maybe you're shooting for too low a setup, I don't know. Try it higher and play it for a while. Sounds like you're doing all the right things in prep for the setup. Maybe just going too low. Best of luck.

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"We might not be big but we sure are slow"

Terence, Are you saying that you don't put any support under the neck? Just the guitar body resting on the benchtop and the peghead supported? Then 6 lbs. on each shoulder.
Sounds interesting. I'm going to try straightening my neck today with the strings on and see what I'm getting.
Rvsgtr, I would play with a little higher action, but the guitar buying public like it low as it will go without buzzing. Plus I feel it could just be a little better and I'm always trying to make them the best possible.
I'm also going to pay very close attention to my fret crowning technique. I don't really think this could be the problem but I guess you never know.
Thanks for the input guys!!

I measured the relief on one of my guitars strung up and settled in and then checked how much weight on the shoulders with the peghead supported gave the same relief with string tension off. Around 6lbs on each shoulder was close and I think that is the weight Martin mentions as well. I do support the back of the neck lightly with my hand while I'm leveling. I try to get the neck flat with the truss rod using one of those notched straight edges while under tension but before leveling.
Quite honestly you could probably just go to leveling under string tension with the neck flat using the extruded Aluminum sanding bars under the strings and skip the weight step. That technique has been written up here many times. I think when you do that you tend to level along the string lines and probably put a little of a compound radius into the frets.
The weight thing is also a good way to check your neck set without stringing it up. If it looks good relaxed but under tension the straight edge hits the bridge you know you have to tweak it a little more.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I checked my fret levelness with a straightedge and backlight while strung up and it looks perfect. I almost expected to see something weird, a hump or rise or something but it looks perfect. I did shim my saddle just a little though and adjusted my relief and it seems better. I just wish I could feel sure it was the best possible. Cause I still think it could be a little better.
When we are comparing measurements of the 6th string height over the 12 fret, are we fretting at the first fret or not? I have noticed it makes some difference and I know that some people do. So I'm just wondering if that is standard or not.
Terence, I'm a little confused on what you are talking about leveling under the strings. Could you tell me more about it or give me a link to where I can read about it? It seems like the nut would get in the way, and it seems it would be hard to keep your level straight, because I don't think following the line of the strings on a non-compound radius board would work? Sounds very interesting though, and like it would be very accurate.

I can see how a notched straight edge would be very helpful. I don't have one though. It's not something that is essential is it? I rather not have to buy one right now unless ya'll think it would really solve a lot of problem.

This is the OLF link to the thread where leveling under string tension was discussed Colby. I think Rick Turner got it going. A number of the other pros that used to post here also endorsed it. I've only used the technique to touch up bad spots but if you were to use it for the whole board I'd stick in a surrogate nut that was high enough to allow clearance at the 1st fret.

viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=13212&p=185565&hilit=leveling+frets+aluminum#p185565

There was an article in American Lutherie a while back were a guy was sanding a compound radius into the frets on a straight radiused board by sanding along the run of the strings. I'll look for it. I have not intentionally done that. When you are leveling with the StewMac metal bars and moving up and down and side to side I think you do a little compounding.
I recall Rick thought the notched straight edge was unnecessary but I find mine useful. Never hurts to have more data.
TJK

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I don't think a notched straight edge will tell you anything. I'm not a fan of the "Hot Rod" truss rods. I've seen them (actually one.....maybe) cause a hump around the 3rd or 4th fret for some reason. I've never used them, but I replaced one on another builders guitar along with the fingerboard so I'm not sure the truss rod was the problem. I didn't closely read all the posts in this thread, I just kinda skimmed them. Are you leveling the finger board before fretting? For me that's the key. It usually takes very little fret leveling for me. You may also try some different fret wire, unless you already have. I use LMI (I forget the letters)XX74, but I don't think it's "magic", I'd just try something different if you haven't. I haven't had any problems. I "send" guitars with the action at .090"-.070" with medium guage strings or .080"-.065" with lights and .004 relief with either guage. String guage depends on body style and players preference. I've never had anything but compliments on action and playablilty.
(Disclaimer, I'm in the process of completing #23 so it's not like I've got hundreds out there. 17 of them are in the hands of happy paying customers)

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

Thanks for the replies. I've been reading up on that leveling under string tension method. What exactly is the aluminum like? Pretty stiff? I'm going to look at lowes tomorrow and see what they have. Best hardware store around out where I live...
So it is just like a regular right angle square right? About 1/2" wide and 1/16" thick. I guess the L angle is what you hold while you sand? It just doesn't seem like it would be strong enough to be straight but I want to try it. It sure sounds affective.

Thanks Woody, I'm going to check my action to those measurements and see how it compares. So I guess you can play yours pretty hard buzz free?

If you do a search in the archives some folks have used the "U" channel stuff too rather than the "L" and made wooden attachments to hold it easier. There is a lot of on this in other threads. I think Rick Turner posted on this over on the Acoustic Guitar Magazine lutherie forum a year or so back as well. You have to be sure it's flat and sand it on a flat surface if necessary. It's just one more club in the bag. I've finished 36 instruments now and have developed a real respect for the setup experts. The more I build the more I realize I don't know. The repair guy at the store where I hang my guitars has 30 years of experience and he has taught me a lot. If you can find a someone like that buy them lunch and tap their brains. For a baseline I usually shoot for around .093 E and .070e at the 12th. (3/32-2/32). Usually in the ballpark of .006 relief. Higher for Bluegrass and heavy strummers. The few Pro players I've built for seem to like the action at the 12th a little high. That surprised me.
TJK

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

IMO, a compound radius is essential for low-as-possible action.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Colby,I use the 1/2" c channel from lows and it does a great job of leveling while strung up.I do have a compound radius on all my necks with .006 to .008 relief as well.I find the important thing is to level while strung as that is how it will be played.

Mark, about how long a piece of channel do you use and do you do something with the nut to lift the strings up?

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Can someone please explain a little more clearly about what a "C" channel is and "U" channel? It seems like I might kinda have an idea, but I don't see how it would work. I thought it would have to be flat to fit under the strings....?

Todd,

I have heard this said many times, and don't doubt for a minute that it's true, but I can't imagine how it would make a difference. Care to shed some light?


Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

I think a compound radius is a good thing for "as low as possible action" if you are a heavy bender but like the feel of a smaller radius near the nut.
If you are comfortable with a 16 or 20 inch radius, I don't think there is much to gain

Pat,
On a constant radius fretboard, the fretboard is essentially a section of a cylinder. In order for the string path over the cylinder (fretboard) to remain flat (without relief), the path would have to be parallel with the sides of the cylinder. We know that the fretboard tapers from the nut to its end at the soundhole (gets wider), and the strings follow this taper. Therefore the string path is not flat, as a matter of fact it has a hump in the center, which would be reducing the action. An easy way to get a good visual on this, is to get a rolling pin as your cylinder, lay a staightedge parrallel to the sides and see that it is flat, now lay the staightedge on an angle to simulate the taper and see that it will not lay flat it will rock on the rolling pin because there now is a hump in the center.

The compound radius fretboard is a section of a cone that matches the string path. Some may argue that we are only talking thousands of an inch, and they are correct. But as Jeff said, it becomes even more noticeable if you do a lot of bending, and if you are truly striving for the lowest action possible, the compound radius is the way to acheive it.

Also, some use a constant radius fretboard and when leveling the frets create a compound radius on the frets by following the string path when leveling.

Hope this helps,
Chuck

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