Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Wed Jul 30, 2025 5:44 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Why quarter sawn lumber?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:02 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:39 am
Posts: 205
Location: Bonney Lake, WA.
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I know some will roll their eyes regarding this question but it has been bugging me for some time so I thought I would risk asking it. Is quarter sawn lumber used for tops, backs and sides because it is stronger and will bend better or is there some other reason that it is used? Also if strength is the issue then wouldn't a redwood top that was slab sawn be about as strong as a cedar top that was quarter sawn?
Chuck


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:21 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:42 am
Posts: 1583
Location: United States
Among other reasons, quarter sawn is supposed to be much less prone to cracking after completion when experiencing changes in the environment.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:26 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:43 am
Posts: 1533
Location: Morral, OH
It is not necessarily stronger but radial cut wood will move a LOT less as it exchanges moisture during seasonal, monthly, weekly, daily or hourly changes.

_________________
tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:33 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:10 pm
Posts: 2764
First name: Tom
Last Name: West
State: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
One reason for quartered tops is that wood moves the least in the radial direction due to changes in RH. Guitar tops are wide,you have to give yourself the best chance for guitar tops to survive without cracking.

_________________
A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:30 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:23 am
Posts: 1372
First name: Corky
Last Name: Long
City: Mount Kisco
State: NY
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Isn't there also an argument to be made that QS wood displays more stiffness (for the same weight)? - which will improve it's acoustic properties.

I've seen lots of backs with interesting figure - and even some sides (although that seems pretty dangerous, IMHO - bending figure seems a bit beyond my capabilities), but everything I've seen on these forums is consistent - don't build with a top that isn't very well quartered - and runout is to be considered the enemy, too. I think the about (stiffness to weight ratio) must be one of the reasons.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:06 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:50 pm
Posts: 3933
Location: United States
According to Hoadly ('Understanding Wood', Taunton Press, 2000, pg. 117) most of the softwoods we use for tops have about twice as much tangential as radial shrinkage for a given change in humidity. This actually has two effects. One is, as has been said, that a quartersawn top will shrink, and therefore crack, less than a flat sawn one. The other has to do with cupping.

If you cut something like a 2X6 out of a small tree near the middle (do they cut them any other way these days?) it will start out flat, but it won't stay flat as it dries. The difference between radial and tangential shrinkage will have the effect of making the annual ring lines on the end of the board try to straighten out. As they do so, of course, the surface of the board, which was flat, becomes cupped or humped across the width of the piece.

Note that this is an effect of curvature of the annual ring lines: so long as they're straight, it won't happen. It's easy to get reasonably straight annual ring lines on a quartered top or back; they don't extend very far. On a flat cut piece you will almost never see the annual ring lines a s straight on the end surface, unless the tree grew significantly out of round. In that case, I'd suspect some other problems, like built-in stress. Cupping across the width of a top or back can riase a lot of stress in the wood and lead to cracking, so using quartered wood for these parts makes sense. Flat or skew cut sides also tend to cup more when you bend them that quartered ones.

Wood splits most easily along the medullary rays that run along the radius of the tree, crossing the annual ring lines. On a flat cut piece the rays run through the thickness, and it's just that much easier for it to crack.

OTOH, those little bundles of ray cells add a lot of strength and stiffness along their length. This is why perfectly quartered wood has higher cross grain stiffness than flat cut. The difference between perfectly quartered spruce, and perfectly flat cut, is not too great: the quartered wood might average a 10:1 stiffness ratio, while the flat cut might be 12:1. However, skew cut spruce, with the ring lines at 45 degrees to the surface, can have a stiffness raio of 100:1; it only has 1/10th the crosswise stiffness of a quartered piece cut from the same tree. Flat cut wood tends to have a variable grain angle as you go across, and the crosswise stiffness varies commensurately.

Note that, on the whole, there is no difference in long-grain stiffness between flat, skew, or quartered wood. You might see systematic differences in a small number of samples due to structural coincidences. If, for example, you cut a piece 1/4" square with hard latewood on each surface and earlywood in between it would be, in effect, an I-beam, and could be much stiffer tested 'flat' than the same piece tested 'vertically'. If the latewood was in the center, and the earlywood out, the flat cut test would have the lower stiffness.

The one real advantage that skew cut wood has is that it's tougher: it won't be as likely to split when bent or subjected to large changes in humidity. I use skew cut wood for harp soundboards for that reason: you don't need the cross grain stiffness in that case, but the added tougness really helps. It's interesting that the 'conventional wisdom' holds that harps made in this way wi'l sound 'dead': people are reasoning by analogy, rather than thinking the problem through. At any rate, I like to use skew cut wood on guitars in the bridge plate, the bridge, and the tailblock to take advantage of the splitting resistance.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com