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I've had a couple of TruOil necks that I pore filled with Z-Poxy get fuzzy after 6-8 months. Almost like the grain raised under the finish. I left a thin coating of Z Poxy on the necks for color and put the oil over that. Recently a nitro neck developed the same thing after about two years. It also had been pore filled with Z Poxy with a thin coating left on. Anyone else seen this?
Terry

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Terry...I've had rough necks on FP and oiled necks, both with and without Zpoxy. I've chalked it up to normal playing wear. I routinely sand them a few swipes in order to get them smooth again and occasionally Re-FP or apply a few light coats of oil.

I have seen nothing similar with Nitro.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Terry,

I've seen it on some of my FP'd necks with Z-poxy, where the pores seem to protrude. I've abandoned Z-poxy and gone back to LMI Micro-bead under varnish.
Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

It's happened to me also Terry , and it didn't take long either . ( Tru-Oil over Z-Poxy ) Like JJ . I have lightly sanded back to smooth, only for it to come back shortly after .I don't think it's a wear issue. Strange how it doesn't seem to happen to the rest of the instrument , which makes me think it has something to do with hand perspiration . On another guitar I've filled the pores with Mah. dust and Tru-Oil , then finished with tru-oil . No problems at all with that neck.

It appears like the Zpoxy is wanting to come to the surface ???? . Hoping some clever member here can shed some light on the subject

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CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
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I am having something strange happen on the neck of a recent build as well.

Didn't I read something here about applying a couple of coats of shellac over Z-Poxy? I just opened a new box of it, and it said to use some type of sealer before painting. Of course, that was for it's intended purpose, using it with fiberglass. But if you 're supposed to seal it in that usage, maybe sealing it before a final finish on wood is a good idea as well (?).

I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts on this, as I'm about to finish two guitars right now.

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Ken Mitchell
Durham, NC

Same deal here with the zpoxy fuzz under true oil. I don't think it is related to perspiration as it is also occurring all over the heel, just as much if not more than on the upper shaft. I have already sanded back twice only to have the fuzz reform within a couple of weeks. I suspect it is a chemical reaction between oil based finish and epoxy and I do recall reading advice, just after I finished the neck on the guitar in question, to seal over zpoxy with shellac to prevent this happening. So, that is what I will be doing next, sanding back, sealing, and reapplying truoil.

Cheers

Kim

Yes Terry I've had the same kind of thing on nitro and Tru-oil. I'm going to seal it Well,
as others have said and If it still does it, I'm switching pore fillers!

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Anderson Guitars
Clearwater,Fl. 33755

Thanks guys,
I also had it recur twice on one guitar. I recently sanded smooth for the third time in 2 years and recoated with 10 coats of TruOil and we'll see. That particular guitar was a demo and sat around the shop and didn't get a ton of play. I'm thinking Z-Poxy may not be the best thing to use under an oil finish on a neck. If I try it again I'll sand back to bare wood and use shellac for tint and as a sealer. I've used Z-Poxy under USL and KTM9 on necks with no problems. Thanks again for the info.
Terry

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Hmmm -
And I just ordered some Z Poxy - after struggling with the proportions on System Three.....
I think what I'm getting from this is that KPoxy is a problem when finished directly with Tru Oil, without a shellac barrier in between.
I intended to fill with ZPoxy, then finish with KTM 9 (water based finish) - still a problem????
Thanks

This was a good thread, Terry! Thanks for posting!

After 3 years of experimenting with oiled necks, I have soured with the experience. Perhaps it was related to Z-Poxy but it hasn't affected other areas where it was applied...just necks with oil. I have recently seen a few of the satin-finished Catalyzed Polyester that Joe White has been applying to necks and that is now my gold standard.

Additionally, even the glossy necks finished in Polyester feel much "drier" and slick as opposed to the tacky and slow feel of every other glossy neck finish I've tried.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Not so , according to Pat Foster and his above post, he suffered the same problem with a shellac neck over Z-poxy.

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CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
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I have done a number with Z-Poxy and KTM9 or Target USL with no problems. I quit using waterbased finishes on necks for other reasons associated with durability but never had the fuzzy problem.
Terry

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I could be way off base here but applying any finsih that has oil in it's name over a sealed surface is asking for trouble. If you read the description on the Tru-Oil site it states that it is a deep penetrating finish. Don't know how it can penetrate over Z-poxy, shellac or any sealed surface. I think that's where the problem lies.

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Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
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The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

I'm thinking exactly what bobs thinking. How is it expected to absorb into the wood if you sealed it with epoxy?

-I think what BobC has mentioned is at the root of the problem, imho. The Tru-oil
wants to migrate into the wood- and it does, in places- but the epoxy (plastic)
keeps it from doing so consistently.. hence the uneven surface.

I'm sure there will be other opinions on this topic, but i'm personally not crazy about the idea of epoxy as a filler or barrier coat on guitars. ymmv...

Possible Bob but i could not be happier with the truoil finish on the red spruce top which is on the same guitar that I am having problems with the neck on. No zpoxy on the top mind, but it was well sealed with shellac before the truoil was applied. It seems many others have had no problems with the body of their instruments which have been grain filled with zpoxy and then truoil. It just seems to be necks, the neck on my guitar is QLD maple but others are having the same issue with mahoganies.

Also it is worth considering that truoil is not strictly an 'oil' finish like say tung oil for instance, it is more like an oil based varnish as it has 'added' driers which produce a more rapid polymerisation of the finish almost like a polyurethane varnish. I am wondering if what we are seeing has something to do with truoil breaking down the zpoxy over time, causing the truoil to blister as the chemical exchange gasses off. Could be that it needs to have a certain saturation point before it becomes an issue and as it is so easy to apply truoil to the neck, that saturation point is more likely to be exceeded during application explaining why the problem is not so common on back and sides.

As far as truoil being a "deep penetrating finish" I know that is the claim, but my own experiments seem to show otherwise. I have found that truoil tends to flash off quite quickly and seal just a few microns into the wood. Successive coats build upon the first which is why it can be bought to a high gloss with correct application. I have even shaved off a section of truoil finish on a test piece to see what is going on. I was surprised how little penetration was actually going on but I think that was because the name truOIL had lead me to make assumptions which ain't necessarily so.

Cheers

Kim

It seems many have used TruOil successfully and the LMI web site instructions indicate pore filling with micro bead filler as part of the protocol. If I were to guess I'd say it's the Z Poxy. I'm going to try some other filler next time. The LMI stuff or CA.
TJK

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

-A reaction between the Z-poxy and the Tru-Oil seems possible also.
I've used Tru-Oil for quite a long time without significant problems, but
haven't used it with epoxy. Tru-Oil is imo an in-the-wood or close-to-
the-wood finish (I believe the makers are clear about that); using it on top
of an already-sealed surface seems to me to be asking for trouble.

I working in finishing in a boatyard (and finished guitars in a small-production shop also, though I learned much more in the boatyard:)) for several years, and *almost*
without exception problems could be traced to not following
the finish maker's instructions... "did you read the can..?" was a standing
joke. Not that I think this is funny- just that good info can usually be had
from the maker or sales rep, and should generally be followed for best results.
btw Famowood is what we used on mahogany necks, with very good results-
fast, very little shrinkage, an alcohol wipe to clear, no topcoat problems- it did
need darkening with aniline or metal-acid dyes to look right, though. CW

Interesting topic. Like I said I have not used Tru Oil but have used oil finsihes such as Watco, Minwax Antique Oil and a few others on pieces of furniture. I always pore filled by creating a slurry with wet -or dry paper and the oil. Rubbing the slurry into the pores with the palm of my hand. Never acheived a high gloss but it would be as smooth as a baby's rear with a nice patina. Of course these were not guitars but I think that type of finish would feel great on a neck. I have used Z-Poxy under USL waterborne without a hitch.

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

-Your pore-filling method is what I also do, if using something like Tru-Oil
and wanting to fill all the pores. Myself, I like a clear open-pore look, but
am in the tiny minority, I realize.. if the edges of the pores are defined,
not rounded, it can be very beautiful. CW

I haven't heard from any folk having a problem with Tru-Oil over Zpoxy on the body of their instrument . This to me , means they're compatible.

It's only when it's applied to the neck the problem occurs. I can only think that it has to be hand perspiration causing some sort of reaction between one or both

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CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
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Disclaimer: I don't understand finish terminology very good. Don't take my statements as facts. They're just what I think I understand.

I don't think Tru-oil is the same type finish as Watco, Minwax, Antique oil, Tung oil or others. I also think reguardless that alot of wood finishes won't work as good as they should when applied directly over epoxy. I don't understand why the problems are only on the necks though. Edit/Added. LMI's instructions for epoxy pore filling recommends a coat of shellac between the epoxy and the finish.

IMHO Bobc method of oil finish and wet/dry paper makes a great feeling neck.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

I have also had this happen, as did Dave, with nitro over zpoxy on two necks. So I am thinking that it is not a reaction, unless zpoxy also reacts with nitro. My guess, is that what we are experiencing is some minute shrinkage of the neck wood, while the zpoxy does not shrink. Thus "feeling" like the grain has raised, while in fact the grain has shrunk, therefore "raising" the zpoxy,, and the fuzzy feeling.

So, why do we not see this on the body of the guitar? My thought is that the thickness of the top, back and sides is a small percentage of the neck, and with cooking and bending temperatures there is less likely any moisture remaining, therefore less chance of further minute shrinkage.

I have been thinking on switching to CA for pore filling also, but I am thinking it will produce the same results since CA will not shrink.

Has anyone that pore fills with CA experienced this?

Chuck

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Taken directly from BIRCHWOOD CASEY website.

"Tru-Oil® Gun Stock Finish
There is no better oil finish! TRU-OIL Gun Stock Finish is the professional's choice for gunstock (or furniture) finishing for more than 30 years. Its unique blend of linseed and natural oils dries fast and will not cloud, yellow or crack with age and resists water damage. TRU-OIL Gun Stock Finish penetrates deeply and forms a tough, clear, hard finish that protects and enhances the beauty of fine woods. For a hand rubbed, satin luster, simply buff with steel wool and rubbing compound or use Stock Sheen & Conditioner. Excellent as a sealer for under butt plates, recoil pads and in inletted actions to prevent stock damage. Use the liquid for fast filling of the pores and the aerosol for the final finish."

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Grab ur'self a bottle Bob and you will see what I am talking about.