Official Luthiers Forum!

While building my guitar, I was uncertain of something, so I cut of the top from my old "Sigma" guitar, it was their most expensive model and when I bought it like 15 years ago it cost about 1200 USD. I was never pleased with the sound so as it was just hanging there I did some doctoring on it .
I thought it would look nice underneath the top as it was their most expensive model and all but WOW. MAN what a piece of crap !!!! the X and the rest of the bracings were all uncarved small logs. just a 1 time hard taper towards the edges and like a 80 grit rounding on the upside of the brace. NOTHING else !! there were tons of glue all over the place and the top was totally dead at tapping on it. the thickness if the top is 0.150 !! the bridge plate 8"*3.5" . and its an om size guitar with cutaway.

So I must say, at least from looking at this top, there are many differences between handmade and factory.

Lars.

You are right , a hand built can be much better than production , though you have to understand they are an engineered product and a luthier built guitar. You can improve many production guitars but a little voicing of the top.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Engineered means they are building a product , it doesn't matter what it is. The engineering is taken into account as you mentioned , warranty , ease of production and breaking the process into its most basic steps. You are correct to a degree but much of your statement is based on assumptions. Companies like martin and Taylor while building a mass produced product ,they are still building a pretty decent instrument , thought warranty issues are taken into account . They are supplying a demand for a product . Cheaper off shore companies are cutting corners and don't look so much at quality as they do at price. Time is money so they will overlook things that don't add value.
When you look at the statistics of the universal bell curve in production , and according to the mathematical laws of statistics , you are going to build a large number of average guitars . There will be a certain number of off fall production that will be tare and you will see a few outstanding guitars.
Most companies don't look at the individual guitar but at the product as a whole. As an individual builder you are taking your skills and knowledge and making a product targeted , not for the masses but for a niche market. That is why we builders still have a client list. We are not marketing to a mass but to a few .

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Thanks John and Filippo for the replies. I cant do much with it now though, Made a Sword of the neck to my son . the rest might end up on the wall as a comparizon between handmade vs factory. perhaps I can get me some good money if I told Sigma I might post photos of their guitars bracings .

Its like opening up the hood on a sports car and see a fiat engine in there.

Lars

Fiat engine?!! I think those are now going to be called "Hemi's".

The problem with engineering the guitar for mass production is that you're stuck using wood most of the time, and wood varies. If you measure the Young's modulus along the grain, which tells you something about the potential stiffness of the top, you'll find that even two pieces of wood of the same species can vary by +/- 20% from an 'average' value. Cross grain stiffness varies even more. No manufacturer of cars, say, would put up with that sort of variation in his materials; it would be darn near impossible to build something with predictable performance. So why do people expect production guitars to have predictable sound?

Guitar manufacturers have to assume that the weakest top is going to end up with the weakest bracing, so they need to over build to avoid a lot of warrenty work. Even a bit of input quality control helps, but the fact is that you can't tell from looking at it what the properties of a piece of wood are. You really need to use deflection testing, or some similar method. All of those methods take time, and time is the most expensive input in mass production.

Luckily for the manufacturers the design of the guitar is so highly developed that anything that looks pretty much like a guitar will sound like one. Given the number of badly made ones out there, even a little attention paid to materials, and workmanship at what we'd consider a 'barely acceptible' level, will get you a better than average guitar. And, since the objective difference between and 'average good' guitar and a 'great' one is really small (again, characteristic of a highly developed design) that better than average box will be pretty easy to sell if it looks OK.

Which, of course, is why the manufacturers stress fit and finish. 'Fit' is easy to get in a mass production setting: it's the only way to get reproducibility, so you have to do it anyway. 'Finish' is one of those things that you can throw money at: none of us could justify the sort of spray rig that Martin needs to have to keep up with production, nor will we have people who spend all of their time getting good at spraying and buffing.

That's why I think it's a mistake for us to try to compete on those grounds. It's not a game we can win, and as long as we let them set the rules, we'll lose. We need to get the customers thinking about what we can do that manufacturers can't: make boxes that excel at producing music. Lars spent $1200 on a box that couldn't, and so do lots of other folks. They just don't usually rip the top off to find out why.

I think someone a few years ago on the "other" forum called this the "pour and shake method of gluing a guitar together"!

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http://www.presnallguitars.com

Alan, you're a genius, but what's amazing is you have the ability to put stuff into words that even I can understand. I enjoy reading all of your posts. You're an inspiration to me, and I'm sure others.

Now, back to the factory guitars. Unlike Lars Sigma, the workmanship is great on most factory guitars, but there's AlOT of (small) compromises made, both for ease of production, and warranty concerns. It's my (and my ears) belief that these small compromises all add up to make a BIG difference in the finished product.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

I agree on Al and John's point.....

But... I'll make another one (I am a little biased, being a manufacturing engineer by day)

You gotta remember that these "Factory" made guitars we are talking about are made to specific price points.... They don't want a $400.00 or a $1,200.00 guitar to sound or play like a $3,500 model.

There are plenty of "Factory Custom" type guitars out on the market that sound great... they are expensive, though.

So in this case -- Martin contracted Sigma to make guitars to a specific design and to have a specific sound and a specific sound at a specific price..... so you gotta judge them by their spec, not by what we think is "Our Spec"

Same for us.... Our "Spec" is different from theirs... more related to performance than to wood dimensions.... and say you were making a BRW/Ad-spruce model with custom inlay, etc.... Wouldn't you want it to have an extra special sound.... especially for the $3,000 wood upcharge.... Would you spend a little extra time voicing it.... and then adjusting it after the strings are on.... just to make sure it had a really great sound...

The challenge for you with this re-build..... how much better can YOU make it sound?

Just food for thought...

Thanks

John

trucker
Being an ex machinist / engineer I know what you mean. I love Al's efficiency of language. As he so nicely stated , just a small amount to attention to detail can set an average guitar apart . Keep the glue mopped and the the blood wiped

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

OTOH I think that we should be grateful for f*ctory guitars...

Why you say?

It's simple - some factory guitars are produced at a price point that makes easy for the influx of new guitar players into the world to purchase. For a few hundred bucks one can purchase a guitar today that is hands above what the equivalent money of 40 years ago would purchase. I remember the action on my first Harmony being high enough to slice cheese....

The guitar that one can purchase today may play very well and indeed be suitable for an aspiring guitarist to learn the hard way that playing guitar does not always get one the babes.

If we did a poll of those who actively, or inactively... sell their guitars what percentage of your clients predominantly played a f*ctory guitar prior to adopting one of yours? I suspect that for a fair number of custom builders the percentage would be notable.

F*ctories produce decent value while also seeding the custom guitar market for those who want to take it to the next level.

So I appreciate the f*ctories greatly and say slather on that thick finish, to hell with voicing anything, use .150 thick tops, and never waste any sandpaper on any stinkin braces.

PS: I just had to express my appreciation for Al too. Al has the unique quality of understanding the science while also understanding that what humans actually hear and/or perceive may not always show up on a scope.

I played a graphite Cargo this week that could hold it's own against a lot of high end factory guitars and you can hammer nails with it and leave it in the back seat of your car all summer and winter. The gig bag's job is to protect the world from the guitar! The next 15 years will be very interesting in our little nitch.
TJK

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Thank you all greatly for the inputs.
truckjohn. I am not doing any job on this guitar, just wanted to put it apart to see the reason it sounded so bad . BUT if I were to trix with it, I am more than sure I would be able to make it sound 10 times better. thickness is .150 !!! braces are like logs !! . I do agree with you all BUT I also feel its like selling lies.
I can have a Yamaha for 200 dollars that sounds twice as good, have better braces, and better top on for 4 times cheaper. So to say they make the guitar for certain sounds is not a really true, as this guitar did not have any kind of sound to it at all. I also think its good there are factory guitars, although I dont think its good that they miss-use their powers to charge 1200 USD for B-GRADE WOODS AND POOR WORKMANSHIP. I know most that buy dont see this as they only look at outside but It is still not right. I guess 3500 USD and up guitars like some Taylors and Martin are mostly selling a name that used to have high workmanship where a small amount of people workt on 1 guitar. Now the guitar goes on a long line where 1 perosn put glue on, the next the braces, the next the top, the next, the next. so is this worth 3500 and up. NO. Just the Name "the brand" !! Look at the chineese guitars that are coming, making "martin copies" with better wood for less money, if the guitars are made in this way then why would not the cheap chineese guitars sound as good and they do. So again its just a name that´s been so famous that people are embarassed top even try to say "well new martins are not that good really"
ok now I´ve had my morning anger out hahaha.

Lars.

Well it's interesting to look at the mechanics of the factory guitar. If as Alan explains wood quality varies by +-20%, and the designer/engineer has to assume that the weakest top is going to wind up on the weakest bracing, then he has to overbuild the guitar by 20% so that the weakest combination of top and bracing winds up where it should be.

Now on the poor guitar that got the best top, paired with the strongest bracing is going to wind up dead sounding, being overbuilt by 40% while the worst combination of top and bracing is going to wind up the one that sings the best, hitting the target the designer/engineer was shooting for.

Interesting isn't it, that the weakest woods winds up making the best guitar in this system, and the guitar with the best woods suffers.

Math is not my strong suit, so my numbers may not add up, but this seems to me, this is the way it would work.

Great thread Lars,
Joe

I second what Hesh said: thank goodness for the factories!

I show instruments at a folk festival every spring, and have done so for almost thirty years(!). For a while there was a guy coming to the show with cardboard dulcimer kits. They were quite well thought out, actually, and you could put together a playable instrument in an afternoon for only about $25 up front. Some folks were offended, and thought I would be too: after all, my nice wooden dulcimers cost a lot more than that. But nobody would buy one of mine just to try out, and I noticed that I made sales to folks who had bought one of the cardboard ones the year before. Far from cutting into my sales, he helped them.

Several years ago I built a nylon string guitar for a jazz guy I had known for some time. He kept going to a store I knew and buying another plywood guitar every couple of years. Finally the store owner convinced him to come and see me. I built him a 'plain brown' guitar out of some acoustically wonderful, but not fancy, BRW and spruce, and that's what he's been playing on since. He was particularly pleased that, soon after he got it, the A&R guy for a small record lable heard him, and gave him a contract, which paid for the guitar, plus.

The factories make it possible for everybody to own a guitar of some sort. A percentage of those folks are going to find eventually that they need something the factory can't do, at least, not at any reasonable price. That's where I come in. What we need to do is what that store owner did for me; convince people that what makes a guitar special is not the fit and finish, nor the fancy wood or even slathers of pearl. It's the sound, stupid.

P.S.
I have some top wood that I'd leave .150" thick, too. But I know how to make it sound good.....

Well said Alan. . I have nothing to say but to agree.


I remember this person who sold me this perticular guitar, He said , If you want a great guitar, than this is for you. I wish I had known then what I know now. (wish is ofcause not much more then I knew then, but a little. .

Lars

Good Words Allen,

All my life, whether it was guns, boats, musical instruments or lawn mowers, two things always seem to rule; cosmetics (how it looks) and price. I have watched folks all my life ignore the performance issues over how "it looks" and "what's the least amount of $". In the guitar world, there aren't many music store salesmen that will do what yuo described!

Dave

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God, Family, Carreer

Think Hesh is spot on.... when most players start out, they have a small budget and most wont even know that small independent craftsman still exist - they go down to the music store and usually pick one they like the look of, rather than worrying about the sound - These days with a good set up that most stores will do (afterall they want that same kid to come back and upgrade in future) it should at least be playable and thanks to teh overbuild should hopefully last a while. You get better as a player and learn more about the bigger brands, tone and wood and get to hear about the better makes - and ASPIRE to own maybe a Martin or a Taylor - Eventually you get one, love it, cherish it and believe for a while that all your dreams are fulfilled.... and then you try others both small factopry and more expensive Martins and maybe the odd custm build and you appreciate the extra quality and hopefully tone...and your goals are now to own a custom build (or an old Martin etc) - in effect getting teh kids hooked on smething they can afford early in life and then progressing through the factory build quality has created the market for the independent high end quality.

Its great that companies like Martin have developed cheaper lines to fulfil the dreams of the less well healled players... the only issue of complexity for them will be the potential of diluting the value of the brand - by selling huge numbers of sub $1000 instruments with laminated necks and HPL bodies, yes you can own a Martin, but does it run the risk of making the Brand less aspirational say for their standard series? In the UK a D42 reatials at over £3500 and at that price point there is huge competition from independants that DO make sure the bindings are level with the sides and the bracing is smooth.... Sure you get that essential Martin vibe and the resale is higher, but is that the priority when buying a $5000+ instrument? I think its actually at that higher end where they maybe offer less competition as although they have the brand, players at that level are loking for more than a name on the headstock?

Who knows, but by creating instruments to a price point that is affordable to the masses, factories create a bigger market at the top of pyramid and that gets more folk playing which can only be a good thing