Official Luthiers Forum!

I'm very excited that I've been asked to build a custom steel string for a friend of a friend. He fell in love with a walnut/cedar OOO that I built (my fourth) and he's asked me to build him one.

So, I'd like some advice from the pros in the group. It's been a dream of mine to start selling my work, and yet, between us, I recognize that four guitars does not make me a pro - far from it. How would you suggest that I price my work? I'm aware of the prices that many of the custom builders charge, and recognize that I'm not in that class, yet I also don't want to undervalue my (and by reflection, our) work at handbuilding guitars.

What approach have others taken to establish a price for early commissions? Thanks!!

I have heard that if you the customer doesn't gasp a little when you tell them, then you haven't charged enough.

I've avoided selling my instruments until just recently because of the baggage that comes with selling. If you're charging money for something, it's expected that the darn thing is going to work and last. Now, part of the reason I don't charge yet is that I build banduras which are not nearly as far along the evolutionary path as guitars on and I really have no idea what their longevity is. I think with a guitar, if you don't stray too far from the proven designs, it's pretty safe to assume they'll last.

The more you charge, the better the instrument's got to perform. By perform, I mean longevity, finish quality, tone, etc. The more you charge, the more warrantee you'll be 'expected' to provide. The less you charge, the more 'as is' you can sell your instrument for.

So, I just recently very reluctantly accepted a commission for a bandura (this will be my 5th bandura, 7th instrument total including a couple guitars). It's not a type of bandura I normally build, but he's the best player in North America and I'd like him to be playing one of my instruments so, I told him I'd charge him materials + a couple hundred bucks for a slush fund (to cover things like sandpaper and other misc stuff). He's got to realize that it's a prototype instrument and may have issues, and he's not allowed to discuss what we agreed to with others.

I think if it were a guitar, I'd probably just open at roughly double cost of materials + a couple hundred bucks. That would basically pay for the next instrument I build and gives him a fair price too.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Imagine that you worked at Wal-Mart and all you did all day is wave people in the general direction of some imported whatever they need. This is an honest job. It is an entry level job, not one someone would expect to perform forever. It is a job that many people do to feed their families. You would not have to buy several hundred dollars worth of tonewood to perform this job. Tone wood that is your responsibility to replace if you mess it up. You would not have to purchase or make several thousand dollars worth of tools to perfom this job. You just show up. From my shopping experience at Wal-Mart it is not particularly important that you would need to be knowlegable about your products or have friendly customer service skills. I am not even sure what the requirements are but apparently just about anybody can do it.

Eight to ten dollars an hour is fair compensation for this job.

As an instrument maker (even a beginner) you are doing something that maybe 100 in a million would even try to attempt much less complete successfully. You are awake at night worrying about doing a good job or if you forgot something. You are developing skills to be the best instrument maker you can. Carving, cutting, shaping, putting love into each chisel stroke. In the end you will have produced the most magical thing I can think of- A GUITAR!.

I could go on and on but suffice to say that in my opinion everybody making guitars and working with a customer should expect to make as much as if you worked at Wal-Mart as a minimum. This means $1500.00 labor/overhead plus materials assuming 175 hours or so in the build.

It is not easy getting this kind of money for a guitar but it certainly would be "fair". Invite the customer to your shop and show them what you do. Mesmerize them with guitar facts and let them tap the tops and stuff. Any reasonable person will be happy to pay you this small amount for something so special. If not then maybe they could go get a Wal-Mart guitar.

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http://www.booneguitars.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Stephen-Boone-guitar-builder/488208541257210

First, congratulations!
If you have a boutique shop in the neighbourood you should go check the high end guitars and see how your work compares.
Tone, set-up and fit & finish.
Look especially at the small shop / luthier instruments, not necessarily the factory ones. Some brands are notorious for poor overall craftsmanship, in spite of the high prices.
Fit & finish is the hardest, the devil is in the details.
Then price accordingly, perhaps at the lower end of the scale since you're starting, but not ridiculously low. Expect to take your time and maybe make no more than $5/hour when everything is said and done. The next one will be better, and faster.
Everybody's different and it takes a different number of guitars to "get things right".
Try to honestly assess your strengths and weaknesses and what proved difficult on the previous builds.
Also how old is your oldest build, how has it fared?
This is important: for example it took 3 years for 2 of my first guitars to fold because I built them too light. I am glad I did not sell them…
If your first customer was impressed by one of your guitars, he or she knows what to expect.
Try to stick to a proven design (for you) and simple appointments to avoid problems arising from too much difficulty.
I view it as good policy to try new things on "spec" guitars, and see if it works (or not) before introducing them on customer guitars.
Lastly, and I assume this happens to everybody, some guitars literally build themselves, and some others present problems during the build. And once a problem arises, it tends to snowball. Good stamina is a must, and avoiding the pressure and stress that comes from a customer paying for the thing.
Speaking about pressure: give yourself plenty of time for the delivery date, and add one month to it…

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Well said Laurent. I agree.

I think there needs to be more discussion on how to raise prices while keeping craftsmanship "notoriously low".

While in some measure I'm poking fun, I am interested in who is doing this, and how.

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https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008907949110

Building guitars for friends and friends of friends is a great way to begin commissions. Usually, you have the chance to see the guitar often and generally get realistic feedback on them. It helps sometimes to have some sort of personal relationship too if things do start to tweak out a little bit, friends are a bit more understanding.

In terms of numbers, I sold my 5th for cost to a friend and built for friends and friends of friends until #11 at cost +$500 or so. All of them were underpriced in terms of the market but I have no regrets. Many of them have needed tweaking but nothing major has failed and most importantly, the guitars are enjoyed and played a lot. I did sell one through my friend's store that I regret. If I could track that person down I would buy it back at their cost in a second. I am not suggesting that it is the right thing to do to sell very cheaply when starting out but it was what I felt comfortable doing at the time. (and I could afford to)

Laurent's advice is excellent. It helps to be critical of yourself when comparing your work to others and adding a month to the date is excellent advice! It helps to be very honest with the person you are building for also. I do think that experience is valuable and I felt that I was "purchasing" experience by discounting as compared to the market as I began building for others. Slowly I gain the confidence to begin to "sell" it as I raise my prices.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

I agree with Burton's post.

My son and I have decided that if somebody wants to purchase one of our builds, we will sell it to them for the cost of the materials only. We aren't doing commissions as we want to control the process. We want to build what WE want to build. We want to tackle what we are comfortable with - and give us the option to try new things. If it works out and somebody likes the guitar and wants to purchase it - GREAT.

We are just now finishing our 4th guitar and about to start 5 and 6. We have committed to this "materials only" fee for at least our first 12 builds. We'll see how things go then.

I would encourage you to think about what is considered a cost if you were to do things the way we are.

We have included $100 fee for consumables and a $100 fee for wear and tear on things like saw blades, router bits, etc.

Just the way we are doing things

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P A U L B U R N E R
Burner Guitars

Good thread guys. I gave my first away to a church worship leader, -700. My second I sold for 1500 to my brother. Third was a gift of the work and cost of materials were covered by Dad $400, neice. Fourth was 1500, good friend, Fifth was 1875 nicer woods and appointments, also good friend. Sixth was a gift, son, -800. I have two sold at 1500 and 1875, yet to be delivered, sister and church friend.

I agree with one comment completely, we're all different. At the end of the day, it's what you feel comfortable doing in regard to your work. As a person gets better at building, he should also get better at marketing, because what you do with the guitars could very well determine whether you'll keep building.

I know one fellow who successfully built two kits, then quit. It is possible that he is mentally off though, but he appears normal.

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

Lots of good advive in this one guys ... I gave away 3 of my first 4 acoustics (kept number one, heck I needed one to play at the time) to very good friends, all as surprise gifts. On each I tried something a little more adventurous (my first had no purfling at all, and a very simple rosette)

It took a while (like 25 guitars) for the price to start to get up there, and even the first brw I made , the customer purchased the brw, and the total was still less than 3K Cdn !!!!! That set would likely be worth almost as much today (it was a sweet set).

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

I think a gift or price of materials for the first few and then adding a little labor is pretty standard. After 4 or 5 I was in the $1300 range, and edged past 2K after about 20. Now at 34 I'm just under 3K. They were moving great until the economy tanked. You've got to get them out there and a lot of real players are poor.
No matter how great you felt you were at the time, your early ones won't be as good as you thought they were. A few are going to come back knocking on your door.
Good Luck
Terry

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Hi everybody
As with Tony, I gifted a couple of my early guitars (to my kids) and as it turns out I actually sold my first for less than $500.00 (canadian) The next couple were $800.00 and my actual first commissions started at $1200.00. Since then, as my building experience improves ( am now building 28 through 31) my base prices have risen to the mid 2000s. I still have a lot of learning to do and each instrument has something new to teach me. Customer requests have taken me from guitars to irish bouzoukis, hawaiians and resos. I really like the variety. I have logged my hours on a couple of builds and it comes in between 80 and 100, nothing fancy on my instruments.

Thanks, all - this is extremely helpful. And maybe more so since the approaches and perspectives are quite varied. I'll be able to use your help in putting together a logical approach to pricing.

Total cost of ALL materials (including finishing and consumables). This is the minimum. He'll be super happy with that and help promote your wares and you can buy materials for your next build... and he won't come kicking and screaming to bad when (if) he has a problem. It is my belief that us "not for a living" luthiers (who want to sell their work) don't charge $1K+ for a guitar that cannot possibly sit side by side with a $1K+ Gibson, Martin or Taylor down at the music store. The guys that do it for a living, hey I'm with them and what they charge, they work hard to make a name for themselves and most of their units can stand on their own anyday with anything, ours can't. I'm being brutaly honest here guys. I'm a quality inspector by trade and I know. I have sold every guitar I've made (6) except #1 for no more than $750. Reports 10 years after are still positive. THAT'S what I'm talking about! My hobby is self sustaining, NOT trying to turn it into a business, but I AM leaving something on earth when I die.

Dave

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God, Family, Carreer

Thanks everyone - Lots of great advice.
Here's where I think I'm going to end up (at least in the first salvo) I do want to get my guitars out there, so I'd imagine there will be some give and take.
I think I'm going to start at $1,000, plus supplies. My time is definitely worth something to me (even for this wonderful hobby of hours) and Stephen Boone's logic (thanks Stephen) of Walmart employees earning $8 - $10 an hour is, I think a pretty compelling point. I'm not going to penalize the customer for my slow work, but if I assume 150 - 175 hours, $1,000 is a nice discount for my relative inexperience.

So.... I'll let you know where it ends up.