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I was wondering if anyone has had any problems with EM6000, specifically in the area of water resistance. I have noticed that there a lot of people here that have tried it, and I wanted to see if anyone else has noticed what I had. I decided to give it a try, and had excellent results spraying the EM6000, but as I was buffing out a guitar, I dripped some water drops on it from a glass of water I was drinking. no big deal right, well, I am not sure how long they were on the guitar, but when I wiped them off, it bubbled the finish all the way down to the sealer. I started a post on the Target Coatings forum, http://www.targetcoatings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1374 and Jeff over there thought that it had to do with an interaction between the WB shellac and the EM6000. I have done some other tests with Zinsers and have the same problems. I have let it cure for over 3 weeks and a water droplet noticeably softens the finish after just 5 min. This has made me seriously question the durability specifically if sweat gets on a guitar. I have 4 guitars that I finished with this, and am stuck here just waiting trying to figure out if I need to sand this down and start over with something else, or if this is going to eventually "cure." If anyone has seen this, or could test thier own samples I would greatly appreciate it.
thanks

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John Thiessen
http://www.iszacguitars.com

Hey Mustang...I read that thread....if you get a chance please ask Jeff Weiss if using a regular alcohol based dewaxed shellac (given proper cure times) would migrate into the lower layers of the 6000. It shouldn't. My thinking is that they have formulated their water based shellac sealer with something that is very similiar to what they use to get a water based finish to have 100% 'burn in'. My antennae are up on this one.

Push comes to shove one might consider their 8800 sealer. I hear it's good stuff.

Hat's off to Jeff also....for a business to go as far as attempting to duplicate your problem and come to a solution is very cool!

Chris

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There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.

Bump....

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There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.

It is really nice to get personal support from Jeff at Target Coatings. He even told me I could send the WB shellac back and get a refund, but I am really hoping that I will still be able to use it.

I am really hoping for someone who has used this product with success reply and/or test theirs, cause I am still getting the same results when I use Zinsers Seal Coat (as far as I understand it is just alcohol cut shellac).

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John Thiessen
http://www.iszacguitars.com

I hope someone has some more info out there. I bought the WB shellac to go with the EM6000 too but haven't used it yet. I'm really glad you started this thread. I had also called Jeff with some questions and he was really helpful. I too would like to know if using alcohol based shellac is ok.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Quick update with what I have been testing.

Both the tests with the WB shellac and the Zinsers Seal Coat soften at about the same rate. Noticeable after 4 minutes. When it is softened, you can peel it right up with your fingernail. However, the finish over the Zinsers appears to make a full recovery. The finish over the WB shellac does not, it is still visible.

There is not really any change to this until right about the 30 minute mark with water on the drop being on the finish, at this point it is visibly lifting from the wood. Over the Zinsers again it appears to make a full recovery after about 30-45 minutes. The finish is not buffed out though, so I assume that on a buffed finish it would be very obvious until you sand that area and buff it out again. I did not let the finish over the WB go this far because my test wood is on an actual guitar and I didn't feel like sanding down to the wood again.

I don't have a lot of other things laying around to compare this to, except a 13 year old Mexican Strat which I believe has nitro on the neck but I am not for sure, the Other guitar I have laying around is one that was finished with KTM-9 at the end of 06, and both of these are completely unaware that the water is even on them after 30 minutes. This is the way I would expect it to be with any finish.

According to Target Coatings specs on the EM6000 they left different chemicals on the finish for 24 hrs and with the water it said it had no effect on it whatsoever. So, if anyone out there has used this, can you check to see if it is water resistant.

thanks

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John Thiessen
http://www.iszacguitars.com

I will be having a guitar come back in about 3 weeks for some touch up work. It was sprayed with EM6000. I'll test it before I do the touch ups.

How long has the finish been left to cure? That could certainly be a large part of the equation. Also, what is the PH level in the water you are using. Not all water is created equally.

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I don't know the PH of the water. It has a high sulfur content before it goes through my whole house water filter which specifically takes out any metals(irons) and minerals along with the sulfur. It is obviously not going to get everything out of the water. I just started the tests again with water that condensed on the outside of a glass. That is about as "pure" as I can get without buying some distilled. It is however the same water that I put on the other finishes and it did not effect them. Mineral spirits does not seem to have any effect on it though.

The EM6000 that is over the Zinsers has been curing for a week, the finish over the WB shellac, initially cured for 3 weeks, when I first had the problem, Jeff at TC said to put some more coats on it, so I put 5 more coats and that has been curing for an aditional 3 weeks. Temperatures have been good for curing pretty much the entire time.

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John Thiessen
http://www.iszacguitars.com

I tested USL but have not tested EM6000 for water resistance. USL wasn't real resistant until it cured for a few weeks....after that point it was pretty good.

I'll spray some samples next time I'm gunning..

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

That kind of goes against the fully cured in 100 hours doesn't it. If it is not fully chemical resistant at 100 hours then don't call that fully cured. I never used the USL (I don't think) I did use the StewMac Colortone WB stuff which is apparently USL, but that was in 2005 or so when I used that so I don't know if that was USL. I am curious now to see what I going to happen with these pieces now over the next few weeks. I need to figure out something though for these guitars that are just sitting right now.

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John Thiessen
http://www.iszacguitars.com

I really like the target finishes i have used, but the whole "full cure in X hours" seems way too optimistic, and i completely disregard it.

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Jordan Aceto
Ithaca, NY

If someone could tell me that this would eventually cure out, I would be happy, but right now I am really questioning it. I can live with buffing out the guitar, assembly and being gentle with the finish for a month or so. That is nothing really new for me. I just need to know it is eventually going to be water/sweat resistant.

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John Thiessen
http://www.iszacguitars.com

Sure hope it is not water sensitive

Mike

FWIW, I've had one done since November with EM 6000. It's my daily player, and sees alot of use, and there's no evidence of sweat problems...

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Rob

I have three out there with "insanely sweaty" dudes, and they seem fine after eight months for the oldest one. Not really long enough to know much, but its something.

If it was me i would buff this one out and see how it does, if you need to refinish it later (i don't think you will) at least you will know, and its not really much harder now or later.

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Jordan Aceto
Ithaca, NY

Jordan, do you use the WB shellac?

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

No, i have not tried it yet. I have used shellac mixed from flakes and zinnsers wax free shellac in a can, just because i am used to doing it that way and i already have it. I did think about trying some of the target WB shellac, but i like good old alcohol dissolved shellac just fine, so i am not super compelled to make the switch.

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Jordan Aceto
Ithaca, NY

Sounds like the alcohol based shellac will work fine. I purchased the WB shellac from Target thinking I would just work with their system but I'm now wondering if I should use the alcohol based shellac. Good thread.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"