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Have many of you have a chance to watch Kent Everett's DVD on voicing? I'm interested in hearing your thoughts and responses to it. A few of my favorite artists play Everett's, so I was extremely excited about seeing what goes into them. After watching it four times, these are my impressions . . .

DVD 1 does some important work in helping us establish a concept of the tone we want from our instruments. I also really appreciate the overview of each brace's function and the discussion on the bridge plate. In fact, that one was a bit of an, "ah ha!" for me, and something I'll be carrying over to my guitars from now on.

DVD 2 started off with another missing piece from my puzzle. I've thicknessed to numbers so far. Even though many luthiers say to thickness until the wood feels right, I haven't had the foggiest clue what the right feeling was. DVD 2 starts with a good demonstration of that and how to get there.

Other high points for me: minimal measurements for the braces from a structural standpoint; talk about where the scallop peaks should be; tweaks you can make in regards to positioning them; a number of times Kent mentions how much flex he's actually looking for (again, something I've heard about a lot but haven't had much concept of); the opportunity to hear someone as established as Kent talking about all this at length and seeing him work; etc.

I had hoped there would be more before and after clips comparing the voiced and unvoiced tops, and I have a hard time distinguishing between the before and after clips that there are. That's unfortunate since that's such a foundational element of this. It's also hard to find information quickly. Because the DVD is structured around conversation, it can seem disorganized.

"Tone is a little bit different than responsiveness. I'm teaching you how to build a responsive guitar. Tone is a whole different thing."

Overall, it's an excellent resource, and Kent's really enjoyable to watch. Anyone who has this DVD along with John's Advanced Voicing should have enough to be learning from for a long long time.

These are my thoughts. What are yours?

James,
This is pretty good timing. I was thinking about the same things.

I feel like Kent's and John's voicing videos illustrate 2 completely different philosophies of "Voicing" or "Adjustment" or building responsiveness or whatever you want to call it. I think "Voicing" is probably not the right term, though, as both of the guys are presenting ways of getting the "Macro level" mechanical compliance into the right range rather than about finessing a build from about the right range to "This sounds like how I want it to" because they stop at the phase of "Voiced top"..... and we don't really know if we "Got there" until the guitar finally plays.

I thought it was very interesting that John seems to make his "Adjustments" towards thinning out the junctions of tone bars, finger bars, X braces, and the linings. He seems to leave the scallops and brace heights mostly alone.

Kent seems to make his "Adjustments" towards the overall height of the braces, then the depths of the scallops and leaves the junctions between braces very substantial.

I agree on the point about voiced vs unvoiced tops and finished instruments. I too would really like to hear instruments -- to hear 1 vs another and say "Ok, I get it now, that is what he was talking about....." I guess this is our homework from the "Lesson"..... go make up a couple and see what happens.....

I am going to try something based on Kent's method on Esteban's next modification round -- my goal is to bring the bracing together into more of a "System" than it currently is..... (which I would currently describe as a bunch of independent braces.)

The tough part about this is that I am fighting myself to completely finish this Ditson build and to play it before I go out and build another.... to force myself to evaluate my decisions and see how they came out vs plan....

Thanks

John

I don't scallop my braces is this covered in Kents DVDs?

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

Kent scallops but he does not specifically discuss the subject in great enough detail to consider it a major portion of the curriculum. Kent's real goal is to get a builder to pay more attention to all the little details. The sum of the subtle things makes the difference.

One thing I would like some clarification on is him saying not to go lower than an 1/8 of an inch on the scooped section of the bracing. I am curious to know if this is a limit that applies to HIS bracing design or just a limit in general. You'll notice that he doesn't scoop the ends of the finger braces where they meet the X brace. That could be a contributing factor as to how he came up with the 1/8th of an inch. I scoop my finger braces where they meet the X brace and though I consider myself bold and would try almost anything....maybe the answer would save me some headache.

Other than that....the DVD got me to thinking on a lot of detail oriented things, which I think was the purpose to begin with.

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There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.

are the DVD's avaiable for download from itunes or similar? or are they mailorder only? i would be interested in getting them, and would prefer to download them rather than have to import them.

thanks

Jonny

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"Anything that happens, happens. Anything that in happening causes something else to happen, causes something else to happen. Anything that in happening happens again, happens again. Though not necessarily in that order." Douglas Adams

Yes he does. He talks about the height and location of the peaks, and about the minimum depth of the valleys.

Chris, I had the impression that the 1/8" was a structural limit for all guitars.

Sorry I'm short. I have to get going to work now

Jonny,

They are available only through the mail.

James part of me wants to agree with you that an 1/8th of an inch was a structural limit for all guitars.....but........clarification never hurt anything. It just makes me wonder. If it all 'adds up'....everything works together....all of the pieces parts have their fingers to their temples...etc.....

I couldn't help but notice that his finger braces were ramped down from the x brace. That joint...where the finger meets the x...I'm just curious to know if his statement is based on his own history of jointing the fingers to the X.

We'll find out. There's so much more in the DVD to digest... I keep watching it.

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There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.

I liked the info on thicknessing the top to the sheet metal wobble. I think that was a good way to describe it and easy to relate too as to just say the stiffness is .... As far as the scallaped braces are concerned I think that's a point that can be debated to no end and you will have to decide which route you want to go. But I liked that he described why the high points were where they were at a node point. I wondered about that. So I guess if you wanted you could go around the edge pinching the top and locate the node point and once you find where it is mark it with a X and locate the peak point . But here's the thing, I thought the node points changed for the different Freq. so the node points aren't always in the same place. I'm still up in the air about scalloping as I don't quiet know if I want stiff points on the top even if they are at a node point. But that's another discussion. Kent gives a lot of good info in these tapes as mentioned already and food for thought. I like the fact that he expressed that the bracing and everything on the top works as a system. It's good to see his method and his attack on the top voicing. To me the thicknessing technic I liked the best among the other fine infomation I wish I had known that before.
I think Kent is giving you a starting point and using the scalloped braces as a starting point. This is his way of getting his tone.
I'm betting on the Ervin Somogyi books to give me more of the detailed infomation and tools needed to get me where I want to go.

Thanks Robbie. guess thats another thing to add to the list then...

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"Anything that happens, happens. Anything that in happening causes something else to happen, causes something else to happen. Anything that in happening happens again, happens again. Though not necessarily in that order." Douglas Adams

Sorry I meant to say, does he cover tapered/parabolic bracing?

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

John, Kent does not cover parabolic/tapered profiling in his DVD as he does not use it in his method of voicing. He has a unique method of final shaping of the bracing, during voicing, that is a great time saver. Instead of using finger planes and chisels, he uses a sanding disc driven by a drill press. I must say that it works quite well as I just finished voicing a top using his method,, although I will not know for sure until it is strung up.
Overall, he does clear up some questions on the "feel" when thickness sanding and a systematic way of voicing. I think the DVDs are worth viewing and studying.

Chuck

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As far as the finger braces ramping all the way to the X-brace, while I think that does contribute to his sound.........it fits in with his unique voicing method of trimming on a disk sander in his drill press. Same with the non-tapered braces (flat on top).....it allows him to use his method. Overall, I'll bet he voices each top quickly and gets a consistent sound which is the sound he wants so it works for him.

I listened to his DVD on my stereo where the woofer went out. I need to listen again on my computer as I didn't hear the bass I wanted to in his guitar but I'm thinking it must be due to the woofer not working.

I admit I hadn't considered the string termination points being the center of the bridge rocking back and forth. I had always thought of the saddle being the center but it makes since now that I think about it.

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

The sanding idea is alright I guess. But it does have it's limitations as he mentioned and I'm not to sure it's any faster then a sharp chisel . There sure is a lot more dust. But it doesn't matter how you get there. Also I think I'm going to try the method of building a mold to clamp the top to for voicing as per Ervin Somogyi. What do you all think about leaving the braces square as to shaping them to a more triangular cross section and not capping the top of the X brace?

Got a reply back from Kent.

It's an 1/8th inch no matter what....and you don't necessarily want or need to go that low...



I shoulda known....as much reading as I've done. Every answer has a caveat. Not a hit on Kent...he's being honest about it. But absolutes just don't exist.

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There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.

The one thing I felt was lacking and I think is most important and should have been addressed is the importance of having braces with minimal to no runout and how to check for it. When you are taking those down to 1/8" it sure doesn't leave much wood left and runout will weaken the brace for sure and a wack to the top could break the brace. I don't care who you got your brace stock from you better take a sample and split it to check the runout first. Perhaps not too much an issue for finger braces but for the X and tone and UTB it definately is a issue to take into account.

What were your, "Ah ha!" moments?

Chris (Snig), I'm glad you got that nailed down. It comes up in DVD 2 after voicing all three tops if I'm not mistaken? I though I had remembered him making it explicit, but perhaps not.

I forgot to mention in my original post how much I enjoyed his candor! I was laughing a lot!

The difference between "tone" and "response" was a big one for me. Kent talks about not even proceeding forward on a guitar until you know what tone you want from it. You structure accordingly - bracing sceme, woods etc. and then get the response through the intricacies of the final voicing process. It came as somewhat of a revelation to me in that there does seem to be somewhat of a system to voicing. Each step has an end point before you go on to the next step. It has helped the feeling of being in a wasteland of unknowing. Guess you can tell I'm a beginner, huh?

The sheet metal wobble, why the peaks are where they are and I like the dimentions and Kent stating where he does his shaving and sort of why. As far as the gong tone I thought John Mayes' DVD is really good in getting that across and the degree to take it to for the different style of playing and to demostrate the sound as you can really hear it in John's DVD. I think Kent's DVDs are far better in showing more of the approach and process of how to get there with a more focused approach and better explaination. John's express and show and explain the tone or call it ring. But to me John's were lacking in the focus of how to get there. To me now it seemed as if he was a bit scattered as to where he was shaving, sort of a hit and miss thing. Although I think he knew why he was doing what he was doing but I think he didn't make it to clear to the viewer. It was like ok let's take the finger braces down. Ok, let's take a bit more from here and etc. But I couldn't get why there and what he was trying to achieve. But then again maybe it's only me. Articulating ones thought process can be difficult sometimes for sure as I certainly know that so please don't take my statements the wrong way or as a put down. I think together they compliment each other it taking up the slack some from what is lacking in each other. You know how it is, get some from this source and get some from that.

Oh yeah, for those of you who may be interested in taking this to another level. Ervin Somogyi's Books can be ordered and prepaid for now as they are to be out in July. They are $140 each or $250 + $10 S&H for the set of 2. You can send a check now or he said he'll have a PayPal account up on his website sometime next month.

I totally agree, with the last few sentences, Chris. I'm really interested in hearing how you'd implement a voicing mold?

From what I've been told the mold is like a building mold and has a ring clamp around the top that the top sits on and is clamped to and the back is open and when placed on the table the table acts as the back. You can then tap the top and turn it over and make adjustments to the braces. You also build the mold to the body profile. I've been told you can put the top on upside down(no cutaway) and tap and shave. And also make a mold for top and back and turn them upside down and work both plates.
I'm sure there are some Somogyi students here who have them and could give us a look at one. If not then maybe it will be in the book.

Good points I picked up from the video:

While trying to get the sound he wanted, instead of building 2 guitars (one with the modification and one without the mod) to compare how the change affected the sound, Kent would build 4 guitars......2 with the mod and 2 without. I think this is a much better approach than making a change on a single guitar and judging the impact of the mod from sound changes from a single guitar. So many things contribute to the sound/tone that one example could mislead.

I'm not convinced that flat topped (or square) bracing is better.......but it is convenient if you can produce the tone you want. Minimizing the hours in a build is important if you do this for a living.

I liked his discussion of what affects tone. For example discussing how body depth affects tone.

The discussion of the back braces was enlightening.......and hearing the 4 distinct tones. I'll use this tip for sure.

The bridge functionality discussions were good.

I would guess his bracing is very stiff side to side (across the grain of the top). I would love to hold and flex one of his tops before and after voicing.

I like his philosophy of finding your tone, figure out how to produce that tone, and stick with it. Of course, the mystery is in figuring out how to produce the tone you have in your head.

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

...and the other thing....the one thing that I felt was really important was HOW TO LISTEN. He did a really good job of describing some of the things he was looking for in his own tone...and really didn't use hardly any of the common words we throw around here. Guys I can't tell you how many times I've had to coach someone into hearing what I was hearing. If you can find a way to hear the subtle details INSIDE a note or a chord....then you will be better equipped to voice....find your tone....etc.....

Responsiveness is not tone. Sustain is not responsiveness.

Such good information.

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There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.