Official Luthiers Forum!

Guys I recently finished my first, and I tru-oiled the neck and french polished the body, and I'm disappointed in both really. In two months I've made a dirty mark on the back of the neck where I play all first position chords, there are a couple of scuff marks in the FP that glazed over again fine. All in all this rules out further use of theses products for me especially if I want to give away or eventually sell me instruments, and hints tips or suggestions, as an aside a luthier friend made an hollow bodied custom shaped electric which the owner asked him to tru-oil and then took the instrument off him and just kept adding layers, and thats just come back and been sent to be refinished profesionally. Also he uses an acrylic car lacquer when finishing in his cramped workshop he prefers not to spray nitrocellulose anymore and send those jobs out when asked for now.

What do you guys use especially in the UK, I don't know anything about water based lacquers, others suggest standard furniture lacquer, rustins plastic coating etc.

Thanks

John

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

The problem with "Plastic Coating" is that it looks like plastic

I've never used "car lacquer" before on wood products but have tried several water based lacquers with great dissatisfaction.

That said however, my Target EM6000 just got here today after UPS destroyed the first shipment. I plan on getting started
using it in the next couple of weeks. There are some very good posts here on the EM6000 and I figure it's worth a go after
all I've heard (seen).

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

If you get commissions to build Classical Guitars, you'll more than likely need to FP the guitar.

For Water Based, I know Michael Payne does Water Based as well as a few others. I'm planning to try it in a month or so and more than likely will use it as my standard, but as of right now, I have no experience with it.

Good luck.

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Thanks,
Blain

http://www.ullrichguitar.com

"89.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot."

I use acrylic lacquer on the electrics and nitro on the acoustics. I farm out most of my finish work anymore. It is cheaper in the long run for me
john hall
blues creek guitars

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

One should really wash their hands before playing and wipe down the instrument with a lightly damp cloth afterwards.

Many of us my self included have high ph which eats at oil and shellac finishes. If you have this ph level issue and you do not make a habit of first washing you hands before playing and wiping down after you are likely have the finish soften and encapsulate oils and grime from your hand, grime build up on the fretboard and corrode steel string rapidly. If the high ph sweat from your hand is left on the neck it is like having alcohol setting on the neck. If the guitar sets in a stand with vinyl padding that too can soften that area on the neck

If you ever pay attention to concert viola, violin and cello players it is typical of them to wipe down prior to a performance, at breaks during a performance and after the performance. You have to figure there is a reason for this.

Now on the shellac dulling: If this is in areas that have flesh contact here again you PH level is likely to be a large part of the issue. If in areas where a pick or nails are contacting the surface. Well that is wear.

Yes it is work to keep a French polish instrument in pristine shape. But until the past 2-3 decades that was really never considered an issue. But with the advent of modern finishes the public have come to expect that an instrument should maintain a glass like finish.

This is something to consider when you choose you finish. If you want a maintenance free hi-gloss finish then choose a modern hard high gloss high solid solvent based finish because you are not going to be happy with an old world shellac and or resin based finish.

I am not lambasting anyone or any finish. that said I often hear complaints like this and it seem that no consideration was given the attributes and short comings of the finish chosen in advance of using it. The finish does not choose its self nor can it speak up and say this is what I do well and this is what I do not so well at. Only the finisher has the ability to reason this out.

Yea I know the price and ease of application drives us to these finishes. But you still should know how each finish will perform before deciding to use it on a project.

Every finish has specific attributes and specific short comings. There is no perfect finish for all situations. Shellac is considered one of the best sonically but can not hold sheen like cat poly. Cat poly is among the hardest, most durable and holds a sheen very well but very toxic to apply and has a slightly higher damping affect than shellac. Nitro is hard and holds a sheen very well. However it too is a toxic and highly flammable, not to mention it takes 3-4 weeks to gas off.

Carefully pick your finish media according to your expectation.

Michael I know I don't have a high ph problem being a metal worker I don't have rusty fingers, also I have eczema so I wash my hands and put a standard cream on them to prevent flare ups, the FP marks seem to come from the case, it's a soft case and the marks occur where the shoulder straps are, and I can live with that, but it's grubby mark that's appear on the back of the neck that's more the issue. I don't know what the difference in finishes available here in the uk I have spray equipment, so that's not a problem. What's the difference between a metal and a wood lacquer? And I absolutely loved french polishing, I found it so relaxing, but I have an instrument I want to give away to a friend who sweat's like a pig when it's above 65f and that's the real reason for posting, so want a suitably thin finish for a uke that'll take reasonable abuse, if a FP neck would take it i'd more than happily FP all my guitars, but I've got to be realistic.

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

Sometimes I wish we could have "editable" spreadsheets over in the tute section where corporate knowledge could be assembled for topics just like this. Down one side would be the finish type/name and accross the the top would be charactersitics like cost, cost of equipment, durabiltiy, toxicity, precautions, etc. Over time, the "database" would come to represent a fair assessment of what is out there. Same could be done for woods. Tools. Etc.

Mike

Mike, not sure if you could embed them, but you could create a pretty nice spreadsheet using google docs, and link it to the tute section.

http://docs.google.com

I've created some pretty nice, excel like, multi-tab, nicely formatted documents using the spreadsheet tool. You can then export/save as html, or just share it with 'everyone' and link it here?

Might be worth looking in to.

Jim Hansen

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Jim Hansen

John, out of curiosity, how much of each finish did you apply, and how long did you let them cure? I generally apply 12 or more coats of tru-oil, and let it cure for a week at the very minimum before rubbing it out and playing on it. I've found it to be plenty durable. Also, I'm not a french polish expert, but I've done a couple tops of steel strings using FP'd shellac, and they've held up very well. Again, it needs to cure for quite a while before it's fully cured. Just some thoughts.

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Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

Now that is a good idea!

Maybe we could move this discussion over to the tute forum and get something started.

Mike

Then neck was given 12 coats of tru oil aand the body was given the FP had 10 bodying sessions before leveling 2 after leveling before glazing and both were left 2 weeks before buffing out with meguiars scratch and swirl remover. If that helps

_________________
Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

John I hope you know my post as not intended to scold you in any way. My point was that I see a lot of posts by a lot of people being disappointed in various finishes, that in most cases the disappointment stems directly from the known a well discussed characteristics of the finish being discussed.

I was hopping to interject only that one should know the characteristics in advance to avoid disappointment. Shellac is shellac and will never be Nitro. Just as nitro will never be shellac

I was surprised you had the issue with tru-oil it is usually a very durable finish. your description almost suggests that something impeded its cure-out. What I have no idea. Another possibility could be the cream you are using is just building up on the neck. Or even may be damaging the tru-oil. I have an uncle that has pretty much the same issue and uses Essema (SP?)cream. It leaves a heavy oily film on everything he touches even though he has thoroughly worked it in to his skin the best he can, but I assume you would know this as well if you are using something similar.

I do understand that many are driven to tru-oil and French polish due to low application equipment investment. I just want to say that I adore both finishes. But I really suggest that those that decide to use them know in advance that they are what they are.

Well from what I read the Target Coatings EM-6000 looks pretty good. I have purchased enough to finish about 10 instruments. Unfortunately, Target Coatings do not have any current distributors in the UK or anywhere else in Europe. They can ship the water based EM-6000 to you but I don't know how expensive it would be.

Good Luck,

Philip

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aka konacat

If you think my playing is bad you should hear me sing!
Practice breeds confidence and confidence breeds competence. Unfortunately, I'm stuck in practice.

I wonder if part of the problem with Shellac coatings is the last bit of the Alcohol solvent
taking *forever* to cure back out.... The alcohol will absorb water from your skin while it is still
present.... and it can absorb certain oils as well -- I know Lanolin is one (which is common in lotions.)
I think Lanolin and skin oils would be a common problem with Lacquer and most varnishes as well....
as they are usually solvent thinned.

On a whim, I decided to try out spray shellac on a top.
While it takes forever to get really hard, and wet sanding takes Paint Thinner....
and it seems to spray on kinda gloppy... I like the stuff.

I am really surprised how hard shellac gets when it *Finally* dries out good......
I noticed that the finish stopped indenting with a fingernail about 3 months
after I started finishing it. It really started to get better 1 month after the final
wet sanding with paint thinner. In that last month, the finish went from perfect
smooth glassy to showing grain lines.... so it really pulled down quite a bit.

Now, a full month of myself and friends playing guitar and the wife knocking it over
when she is rummaging around haven't left any scratches or dings in the top finish....
and no weird soft spots or gray marks from handling. This weekend, the nieces and nephews
were playing around with it... and the youngest one drooled all over it (literally, 18 months old...)
No problems at all.

Anyway, I hope you have better luck with finding a good finish.

John

If properly done a French polish finish the Alcohol flashes as you work. Depending on your process the shellac will be as hard as it will ever get in 3-5 days unless worked far too wet. Which by the way is something I find less experienced FP finisher do regularly (work too wet)