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 Post subject: Grain Popping methods?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:11 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Hello all,

How do you guys get the grain to pop on your figured woods? I have seen a method where you put dye in shellac on maple and then sand back to bare wood leaving some dye in the figured grain, but I was wondering if there is a different method for darker woods?

Thanks!

Graham


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:43 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian
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How you want to pop the figure is important to the answer to your question. If you want darken the figure as explained in the scenario you mentioned then dye and sand back. This works because the dye penetrates the exposed end grain of the figure much deeper than through the long grain. After all quilt and curl is basically where the grain is running out. Now if you do not want to dye the figure t a darker color, an epoxy wash will really enhance the figure but not change its natural color. When you epoxy pore fill figure wood then sand back to wood and do a final 50/50 epoxy alcohol mix as a very light wash, curl and quilt figuring really jump out at you.

heck just a shellac sealing makes most curl and quilt jump much more than it appears dry.

See the curly figure in the Narra of my avitar. All I did was epoxy fill sand back t wood and wipe with a 40% alcohol 60% epoxy wash.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:51 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Graham,

Z-poxy Finishing Resin will pop the grain. I just pore filled a soprano ukulele using a couple of sessions and then sand back to wood leaving the pores filled. This is followed by a 50/50 wash coat of Z-poxy that is rubbed on in a light thin coat to even the color and to pop the grain. It really make the wood look nice. Hesh did a very nice tutorial on Epoxy pore filling that you should take a look at.

Good Luck

Philip

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:09 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Thanks for the help guys.

I'll check out Hesh's tutorial.

Graham


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:10 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Graham Steward wrote:
Hello all,

How do you guys get the grain to pop on your figured woods? I have seen a method where you put dye in shellac on maple and then sand back to bare wood leaving some dye in the figured grain, but I was wondering if there is a different method for darker woods?

Thanks!

Graham


Graham,

Both of these finishes in the pics were done using the method you described. They were then topcoated with lacquer and are now ready to be leveled and buffed.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:13 am 
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On some woods (eg mahogany), potassium dichromate does a LOT to enhance both grain & colour. (test first & DON'T DRINK IT!!)

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:53 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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You can understand part of the effect of finish by thinking about the Index of Refraction (IR) of the materials. Transparent materials bend light depending on their electrical properties, and the degree to which light is bent when passing from a vacuum (or air, close enough) into such a material is a measure of the refractive index. Some light is also reflected at the boundary. This bending and reflection also happens at the boundary between two materials of different IR.

Thus, to get the most 'depth' in a finish, you need to match it's IR to that of the wood it's going on. Epoxies seem often to have about the right IR, as do many varnishes, including 'Rockhard'. Nitro is a little bit 'off', so it can look 'veiled' by comparison, and shellac is even further off. It's often difficult to see these differences unless you can compare them directly: almost all finishes are, after all, closer to wood than air in IR. Note that hardness of the finish is not an issue: linseed oil and UV cure polyester both seem to have about the right IR. The same can happen with layers of different sorts of finish, if the IRs of the different layers are much different from each other. Usually, though, the look of a finish on wood is most effected by the first coat that goes on. 'Rockhard' varnish over a wash of shellac tends to take on the look of shellac unless you sand back to the wood.

There are other things that effect the look of a finish, of course; not least the smoothness of the surfaces.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:21 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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M.D.P. has said -
heck just a shellac sealing makes most curl and quilt jump much more than it appears dry.
I agree !
I use Lemon ,or blond shellac for the first coats depending on the woods & shade I'm looking for.
More coats really bring out the depth & figure!
Some oils really pop grain ;but you can not put any other finish over them .

Mike

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:23 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian
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Filippo Morelli wrote:
Al,
Thank you for removing some mystery from this topic. You're posts are frequent gems, this one no different in that regard.

I would add one small thing to the comment on using Zpoxy. I've understood that leaving a thin coat of Zpoxy improves the overall "pop" of the wood. If you sand back to grain, then several things seem in play, the most of which is that epoxy may not be soaked into all the wood. Finishing with a wash coat of Zpoxy cut down seems to make lots of sense. Curious if others agree that the pop is better when a thin coat is left over the entire wood surface.

I have an EIR guitar just finishing up that looks fantastic with Zpoxy, which really created a beautiful chatoyance (to coin one of Mr. Stock's favorite terms).

Filippo


Of course!!! for the reason al mentioned :D


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:09 pm 
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Here is what has been working for me.
When I first started out (#%**) years ago by making a dulcimer it was suggested that I try putting linseed oil, thinned a little with turpentine, right on the wood, sand it back lightly, let it dry a day or two and then then shellac over it.
My teacher liked koa alot so we had lots of scraps around to play with. Oil does the pop thing on figured wood! I have read since then that you shouldn't use oil under another finish but I have never had any problems . Now, after a wash coat of shellac, then filling the grain, I use a tung oil based stain on the wood, wash it back with naptha, let it dry, usually a day or two or longer, (I should mention that Michael Dresdner told me to wait a week for this), sand lightly once more, tack cloth away all dust, then shellac or vinyl sealer over that followed by nitro. The oil treatment is especially nice on mahogany and koa. I don't do this on rosewoods. I have had no adherence issues at all.
As with any stain you put right on the wood, sanding through the finish back to the wood in a few spots will show as lighter areas so you have to be careful sanding between coats early on to not over do it.
I wouldn't use oil on a top wood as it can soak in and make the soundboard heavier and less resonant.
A crisp new single edge razor blade used judiciously as a scraper on spruce after whisking (and allowing to dry) and sanding to 220 can really bring out the sparkle in spruce.
Shellac as a sealer for spruce contributes a little amber coloring to the spruce which is usually desirable, so I prefer shellac over vinyl sealer here.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:40 pm 
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.......to tag on to Fillipo's questions......and to Al's post:

If you add a thin wash coat of epoxy and the grain looks really nice, will it keep that look after adding shellac?.......or shellac and laquer? After reading Al's post I'm wondering what finish combinations will keep the nice grain pop the epoxy adds and what combos may affect it negatively.

Al or anyone else, has Al previously posted details on his methods of applying Hardrock varnish? I'm guessing it is applied by hand instead of sprayed. I would love to read the methods or precedures used and coments on how difficult it is to use.......what grain filler is compatible, what sealer, if any, should be used, etc.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:41 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I recently suffered from an access of brain power, and thought to actually save a tutorial I wrote up about using Rockhard varnish. The only thing I left out, I think, is cleaning the brush, which I do with Ivory soap and water, after getting as much varnish out as possible with thinner and drying the brush thoroughly. Anyway, here it is...

The product I'm using is Behlen's 'Rock Hard Table Top Varnish'. As with any finish, it takes a while to get the hang of it, but you can get excellent results. Once mastered (do we ever 'master' a finish technique?) it probably does not take more man-hours than French polish, but the lead time is longer.
As with all of the modern synthetic-resin varnishes I know of, this one has some issues that make it hard to use. Aside from the usual ones that you get with all brushed finishes, such as 'sand' and runs, you can get problems with 'witness lines'. There are also circumstances when it will not dry as fast as it should.
'Sand' is what they call the little particles of varnish that you just can't get out of the brush, which produce a nubbly surface when it dries. All you can do is get that down to a manegeable level by cleaning the brush really well. Then you have to sand off the nibs, and that's when the problems start.
This varnish hardens from the top down. As you sand through the coat on top you go from a soft layer into a harder one, and this shows up as a shiny 'witness line'. The only ways to get rid of it are to avoid the problem in the first place, by not sanding through, or to allow the finish to cure fully enough through the film thickness that the hardness is substantially the same all the way down.
Avoiding sand-through in the first place is a matter of getting each new coat perfectly level and smooth (except for the sand). I find this easier to do with very thin coats. However, if you just add a lot of their proprietary reducer (and DON'T use hardware store thinner for this!) you'll end up with something that will stay fluid enough to run at the slightest provocation, and there goes your uniform smooth coat.
I find that thinning with about 25% reducer and 5% acetone works well. The acetone 'flashes off' fairly quickly, giving you enough time to spread the varnish in a thin coat before the brush starts to grab, but leaving the film viscous enough to avoid runs and sags if you're careful. The acetone also seems to help the new coat to 'bite' into the one below. Putting is a few drops of kerosene per pint of mix provides a little lubrication for the brush, and does not seem to make problems.
Applying oil varnish is something of an art in itself. The stuff starts to set up as soon as it hits the surface, and if you brush over it once it has started to gel, it will look like a plowed field. Thus you have to work off a wet edge.
I use a small soft brush these days: a camel hair 'wash' brush 3/4" or 1" wide. Dip the brush in the varnish, so that it's wet only about half way up the bristles. Dab it onto the back in the upper bout, making two patches about 2" long along the grain up near the top edge. Then use the brush to spread these across the surface, trying to get complete coverage. Always brush OFF the edge, never onto it, as that will squeeze varnish from the brush onto the sides and make a run. When you've got the surface pretty well covered, brush lightly along the grain with overlapping strokes, feathering the varnish out at the lower edge of the wet patch and making the surface as smooth as you can. Then pick up another load, and start dabbing it on right at the wet edge. When you're doing the sides make sure you don't make runs on the back edges: check after every brush stroke, and brush out any runs very lightly, moving the brush slowly so it doesn't mess up the gelled varnish on the back. Ditto when you're doing the top. I do the back and sides while holding the guitar with my hand through the soundhole, then do the top starting from the lower edge. This assumes the neck is not on; if it is it's a lot easier!
Varnishes harden by a chemical reaction that involves oxidation of the drying oils. Some woods, notably tropical ones, can contain non-drying oils that will leach up into the first coat of varnish, and slow the hardening. I've had the varnish stay tacky for a week or so on Macassar ebony bindings. You cannot successfully put on the second coat until the first one has fully set up. It might skin over, but the varnish underneath is still soft, and the whole film will come off. Looks bad.
UV light speeds up the drying process. I'm not sure if it's the light directly, or the ozone it produces, but even a bit of UV can be a big help with that first coat if there's a problem.
Depending on how things are going I might wet sand the surface at some point. If there are sags or runs that's the only way to get it level for the final coats. If you sand through someplace you'll need 5 coats or so of this thin varnish to build up enough to polish back.
Once the first coat has set up, it should dry well enough to 'dust up' when sanded in four hours or so. With luck you can get two or three coats on in a day. I always try to do the final two coats as close together in time as I can, so that the surface of the penultimate one is not too hard. This is a little tricky: a slightly-less-than-cured coat will tend to drag the brush a bit, and make it a little harder to get the next one really level. At least do them both on the same day, rather than letting the next-to-last coat harden over night.
Once you have built up a thick enough coating (I use anywhere from 5-8 coats, or even more) you have to wait. Then you need to wait again. Varnish shrinks a lot as it cures, and it takes as much as three months to cure 'fully' ( some aver that it never does, but in three months it will be about as cured as it's going to get). Meanwhile, as you wait, you'll find that the great fill job you did wasn't all that great. Surface prep here is as important as it is with French polish, but you knew that. In practice, two weeks is usually sufficient after you've gotten the last coat on to allow for rubbing out without too much risk of witness lines, but three weeks is even better.
If you were a good boy and ate your veggies you'll have a smooth shiny coating except for the sand and a brush hair or two. I sand things out with the finest grit of Micromesh that will work in a realistic time: try 3200, and go to 2400 if you have to. Once you have gotten the bulk of the sand out, go to the next grits in the usual way.
When I've gotten to #3600 or 4000, I use plastic polish. 'Novus' brand works well: it's not as aggressive as Meguier's and leaves a better surface on a finish that is not as hard as nitro. You can then go to white buffing compound on a wheel for the final shine. If the plastic polish shows witness lines, allow the whole thing to sit for a week or two, and then buff it. I did that with the guitars I took to Montreal last year: they were OK for the show, but looked that much better a week afterward when they were buffed out. Darn.
This varnish is hard enough to take a really nice shine. It's tougher than either nitro or shellac, IMO. I end up with more finish on the surface this way than I would with FP, but not all that much more, and it's a more protective film, with better chemical and abrasion resistance. I've used it on the tops of steel strings with no evident harm to the tone, but I've been too chicken to try it on a classical top yet. I don't doubt that it adds more mass and damping the FP.

Oh yeah; filler. So far I've used varnish fill (that is, no fill), a French polish pumice fill, water based filler, cyano, and epoxy, and they all work so long as you sand back well to the wood.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 1:27 pm 
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Thanks Al!!! [:Y:]

You've been so helpful when I've asked questions. I sure appreciate you taking the time to do this. I'll copy your response into a word document so I can refer to it later.

Thanks again.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:59 pm 
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I am thinking along the same lines as rgirdis. What I have been experimenting with lately is sanding the body, neck, and headstock as high as I can take with micro mesh and then putting on 2 or 3 thin coats of waterlox. The extreme sanding and the penetrating oil are amazing for the grain and unlike tru-oil the waterlox seems to dry on anything. After this I will scuff sand it and layer shellac over it and on the un-oiled soundboard (sanded to 220 or so). Then I will top coat over that. I am just starting to do this but hearing that someone else has been doing something similar with no adhesion problems sounds good.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 4:18 pm 
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When I was finishing this koa, I sprayed straight lacquer first and was extremely disappointed with how little the figure came through. After discussion here, I went with Z-Poxy, and that's the result you see. There isn't anything else top-coating it. On a guitar, of course, that wouldn't be the case, but here you can see how effective Z-Poxy really is. I'm looking forward to trying McFadden's Rosewood Sealer on the next piece of figured wood. According to Rick Turner, it wets the wood as well (if not better) than the Z.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 6:12 pm 
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James,

Are you thinking of using teh McFaddens Rosewood sealerfirst thing before pore filling or sealing after the pore fill?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 2:42 am 
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Darryl, I'm planning to fill with Z-poxy, sand to bare wood, two thin coats of Waterlox, then two coats of sealer.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:31 am 
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Koa
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try some MinWax #209 natural 'stain'...when wiped on you can spray lacquer over it less than 24 hours later assuming it is not cold and humid...


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