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I'm looking to buy a set of these Grover tuners in gold
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guit ... ml#details
and I would like to change the buttons to Ebony.
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Tune ... ml#details
They tell me that I need to heat it up to pull the button and it might damage the tuner. I'm not clear, is it heat the button to pull it? I know you heat the shaft to install it in a plastic material button. I know you can install copper wire into a soldering gun and it takes about 15 seconds to heat the shaft. What I don't know is if the metal buttons are soldered on or just pressed on or will the heat destroy the gold plating on the shaft. Also I'm wondering if I can just cut the buttons off with a Dremel cut off wheel as I don't care about the buttons. I have a email to Grover to see if they would sale a set with the buttons but expect the answer to be no. Any one have experience in doing this? Yeah I know, just leave on the gold buttons. But where's the fun in that?

It depends on how the buttons are put on. If they're shrunk on, you'd need to heat up the button to get it off. They likely just slide them on with a dab of epoxy, so heating up the button or the shaft should get it off. Heating up the button is less likely to heat up whatever plastic parts are inside the casing, which makes it less likely to hurt the tuners. The metal plating can take much higher temperatures than the glue.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

OK thanks Bob, Sounds like it shouldn't be too hard then. I guess I'll put an order in for the ebony buttons then.
Hmmm, What would it take to make my own, a router inlay template and a spindle sander ? Could be yet another upcoming jig.

The buttons on Grover and Gotoh open gear tuners are plated brass and pressed on the shaft, only the plastic ones require some heat to slide out. You need to drill a 1/4" hole to hold the shaft in a piece of scrap, and make a couple of wedges to get the buttons off. The crude way is with a clawhammer and that's what I use since I have no use for the original buttons. Clamp the tuner to your jig with a quickclamp so you do not bend the shaft, and hold the jig in a vise. Then CA the ebony buttons (you will need to re-drill the holes, preferably in the drill press with a stop), it will hold fine, the end of the shaft is flat.
I do it all the time, tip courtesy of Dan Roberts from SCGC (obviously they do it too…).

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Thanks Laurent, that's what I was hoping to find out. I appreciate it.

I just changed the buttons using Laurent / Roberts technic. It went well and is nice to know for sure. Thanks again Laurent. I really didn't want to shell out another $100+ for Waverlys. I'd have more in tuners then the rest of the Guitar.

Great thread.

Show us some photos Chris!
This is a great idea because I also have wanted nice tuner buttons on my builds but can't afford Waverly's.

Super idea,
Joe

Laurent, do you have a source for inexpensive ebony buttons?

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Ken Franklin
clumsy yet persistent
https://www.kenfranklinukulele.com

I can take some pics and use the the already finished tuners as an example if you like.
I was going to make a jig or two to make my own buttons as it doesn't look like a difficult thing to make. Just an oval like shape with a post hole and an 2" radius on the flats with the grain.
But as you can see I got mine from StewMac. I didn't think they were too badly priced but making a jig would allow me to make them from anything of my choice.
Oh I used a #29 drill bit to open the holes up.

StewMac, the price is very good when you order 36, which is 6 sets.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

OK a quick tutorial.

More

More

Just remember that the tuners used in these pictures are just for the Tutorial and were metal and changed. That's for anyone who hasn't read the whole discussion. And also this was the first set I have done so Laurent feel free to add anything as you do it all the time.

Does that help Joe?

Oh yeah, the 1/4" through hole is needed so you can use a dowel or something to push the tuner out of the block as it is a snug fit .

Thanks Chris!
That is super, and the tuner sure looks sharp with the ebony button!

And thank you Laurent for sharing your process!

I love it,
Joe

Well if you know me then you can figure that after changing the buttons I started to think if there might be an easier way to do this and this morning I came up with this jig I'm calling it the Bean Press. I haven't tried it out yet but I can't see it not working. I ordered another set of machines and ebony beans from StewMac and when it get's here, I'm guessing Friday I'll probably work on a YouTube video of it. If you think you might want one we can discuss it in a PM.

Another option is to buy tuning machines from Santa Cruz Guitars. Their gold ones with ebony buttons already on them are $70 a set - not much more than the Grovers plus replacement buttons, and I would consider it a savings, since I don't have to spend the time changing the buttons. I believe the SC tuners are made at the same factory as the Grovers (not sure about that), and are essentially the same design, but the base plate is shaped a little differently, more like Waverlys, and I like the look of the SC ones better. Of course, they also say "Santa Cruz" on them rather than "Grover", and I like that, too. The folks at Santa Cruz are very nice to deal with.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Todd, where do you get them for $70? I just checked their site and the new vintage style ones are $105 and they look a bit more like the Waverlys and I found the series 100 open back for $95 and they seem to look the same as the Grovers as to shape. Are they giving a builders discount? I also was at Grover (grotro.com)and they have a Sta-tite 97 series that has a bit more point looking a bit more like the Waverly but is 14:1 where as the Grover 18:1 sta-tite looks pretty close to the Waverly too. Not really that much difference. Although the button shaft is thicker on the Waverlys it's not plated nor is the gear.
Don't get me wrong I have Waverlys on my guitars but they take time to save for. Hopefully I 'll be putting together a few jigs maybe next week if my ideas pan out where I can make my own Beans which involve a router, sander and drill press.

http://grotro.com/Mainvintage.html
http://www.santacruzguitar.com/products ... ories.html Scroll down page.
http://www.themusicmotel.com/store/prod ... 18&vid=844

Chris, I called the folks at Santa Cruz and they were happy give me a luthier's discount. I got a set of the "Vintage Style", in gold, with ebony buttons, for $70. To my eye, there is quite a significant difference in the shape of the base plate, and I like these much better than the Grovers. Other than the base plate shape, though, I think they are identical to the Grovers* (as I understand it, Santa Cruz and Grover worked together to develop this tuner design, but I suspect Santa Cruz came up with their base plate shape, in part, to distinguish theirs from the Grovers). I may change my mind depending on customer reaction, but for now, I plan to make these Santa Cruz tuners standard on my guitars. I actually like the way they look a lot better than Waverlys, partly because all the metal parts are the same color (gold), and also the little brackets that hold the worm gear look better to me. It would be premature of me to give a thorough report on how they work, but, except for the occasional bad gear, the first generation worked extremely well; assuming they successfully fixed the problem those had without creating any new problems, these should be stellar.

The other Grovers (the 14:1 ones) you're talking about are an old model and are not in the same league as far as quality is concerned.

If it were up to me, I'd prefer a lower ratio, like 14:1 or 12:1, and I know a lot of players feel the same. The hype about higher ratios is nonsense, IMO. You just have to turn the dang thing more to get in tune, and it doesn't make it any easier to tune accurately. Like so many things, the ability to tune accurately is in the skill of the player, not in the tuning machines. On the other hand, 18:1 doesn't create any big difficulty either; it's only a very minor annoyance, so no big deal. But then Gotoh takes it further to 21:1, and that's just really getting ridiculous. It's one of the things I don't like about the Gotoh contour 510s, the other thing being that they're ugly as sin - formless blobs! - but I digress...

*Don't quote me on this - I don't know for sure if the latest Grovers incorporate all the mechanical changes that are evident in the Santa Cruz second generation tuners. The change in the worm gear brackets looks identical on both, but I haven't inspected them in detail side-by-side to see if everything is exactly the same.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Thanks Todd, that's good to know. Let us know how they are when you get a chance to use them for awhile.