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I need to select glue for my first build. The easy choice is just use Titebond (and I might). I've read that hyde glue has very good creep resistance which I like......but with the short working time I don't want that kind of pressure on my first build.

I've also read that fish glue is a good alternative to hyde glue and has good working time. Does it have the creep resistance of hyde glue? I've also read that fish glue has poor water resistance. Is this cause for concern or is there certain joints where you would avoid using it? Thoughts?

Thanks!

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

Darryl bro you could build the entire guitar with Titebond and it would be fine. Some pretty well known names do this too.

Here is what I use and where:

Titebond - wood bindings, installing the top and back, peg head over lay, gluing the blocks, wood rosettes, linings, back joint reinforcements
HHG - all braces, bridge plate, bridge, joining the plates
C* - fret board side markers
Epoxy - fret board to the neck

Now this is just what I do now and not intended to be a claim that what I am doing is better, best, etc.

Fish glue is a great glue and the level of moisture that it does not work well with is a level that we would not expose a guitar to anyway. FG does not clean up as well as HHG but you are right that the open time is attractive and the bond is very much like HHG, very thin, very hard, no creep.

LMI white is a great glue too and you can pretty much pencil it in where ever you might use Titebond. It only keeps for 6 months and it's not a good idea to expose it to freezing temps either which makes it not really available to me in the winter since it has to be shipped.

Since this is your first and even if it was not Titebond is a great glue and we are very fortunate to have it. If you saw the HHG toot it's never too early to start playing with HHG either.

Good luck.

Not to thread-jack, but Hesh, why epoxy fretboard to neck?

Also as a woodworker...forever, I really prefer using the yellow glues over hide glue. I use hide glue for my antique restorations because that's what was used way back when. I don't agree it's a better joint though. I still think the workability of the yellow glues (both Elmers wood and Titebond) are superior in their ability to join wood to wood and get an invisible join. Perhaps I don't have the skill or speed to work with HHG to get it bonded and clamped in time to get as good a joint as I do with the yellow twins. I also have never seen creep and I've used the yellow glues for a very long time. I guess what I'm saying is I'd go with Titebond and relax and enjoy the process. If at some point you feel it's important to use HHG, go for it. I say this as a guy who has at least a 1/4 million joints done using non-HHG products.

Hi Darryl,
I used HHG for the first time on my last two guitars. Every brace, lining,etc... is glued together with it except the binding.(Used LMI glue for the binding). Even joined the tops and backs to the sides with it and had great results....tight joints! (using go bars). I was hesitant at first about getting good tight joints before it jelled up but its not really as bad as some of the storys you've probably heard.
I think its some really neat glue and a fun experience building the boxs' and also like the fact that there is no "creep".

If you can build a guitar...you can use HHG glue with good results!

Jeff

It doesn't introduce moisture into the wood, which can cause it to move, and thus it stays flatter. As many have said, most necks won't move...but you'll regret not using epoxy on the rare ones that do!

Titebond is the most forgiving of the glues used in lutherie, but I barely ever use it as it's a big mess. Hide glue is nice and fast and it'll force you to make really good joints, in which it's easier to use than Titebond (easier to squeeze out). CA will work if your joints are perfect, (seriously!) but it doesn't forgive anything short of that! I pretty much use fish glue as 'titebond with less mess' since it's not as runny and it spreads nice, but don't bother trying to clean it up before it dries...which takes -forever-!

The LMII glue dries clearer than Titebond, so I'd use that or Titebond until you get good. Once you're good and smooth, hide glue is cleaner and faster...but it'll be a disaster if your joints aren't good.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

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As far as titebond goes, what titebond is the better one, I II or III? I used titebond II on my first build and I really liked it.

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Jason Moe
LaCrosse WI 54601

I used hide glue exclusively on my first guitar build... still using hide on my second, but once I got some titebond I started using that because hide glue must be heated before use, which maybe not a big deal if you glue lots of stuff at a time but everytime I want to glue anything I gotta heat things up then be really quick it really gets tiring sometimes. So I started using titebond for the longer open time and it's ready to use all the time. The only problem with titebond is that you must make sure the joint is good and that they are all clamped since titebond does not stick to itself like hide glue, so if something did not close for whatever reason you must clean out the old glue before putting more on. Also titebond must be clamped because unlike hide glue that can pull the joint shut as it dries, titebond does not do that. So I think if I am using the tape method of joining plates I will use hide glue, as well as joints that I would like to take apart later on like bridge and dovetail neck joints. For something like closing the box I will definitely use titebond, I need lots of time to work when doing that.

If it's your first guitar use titebond, its easier to use.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Jason buddy Titebond "original" is what most folks who use Titebond use for Lutherie. It releases nicely with heat.

Joe the other guys did a great job of answering your questions if you wanna read what they wrote and this will preclude me from needing to be redundant.

Great responses everyone, thanks!

I already have Titebond original. I think I'll order both fish glue and hyde glue. Try the hyde glue on my braces and fish glue to close the box. What should I use to glue the fretboard to the top?

Do you typically clean fish glue immediately after squeeze out, or wait till it skims over, or wait till it fully dries?

I've read that some use a baby bottle warmer to heat hyde glue. Which models get hot enough? I have reloading equipment so I'm able to measure very accurately with my beam scale though a digital would be handier. I think Hesh's tut gave a source for small plastic bottles. Question, will teh liquid inside the plastic bottle get as hot as the liquid surrounding it (the liquid in the warmer)? If not, do you usually set the warmer a few degrees above the desired temp? How much warmer? The small bottles and a baby bottle warmer would keep things fairly simple for hyde glue.

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

Cyno for side dots and inlay...
T-88 epoxy for fret board and binding (you will never have a binding failure with T-88!)
LMI White for everything else

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Guitar Building = Continuous Improvement Process

As a beginner I started using titebond for most of the joints and liked it, it was easy to use etc, but a little more tricky to undo when I made a mistake, as I had to remove a bridge I'd glued on with hide glue. I had trouble sourcing hide glue in the UK and the stuff here isn't the high clarity LMI stuff you all enjoy, and when I started weighing out the amounts it worked first time I like the stuff and have used it successfully on uke build so far, the only problems I had was on a joint where I tightened the clamp the work wanted to slide with the twisting motion of the clamp, and by the time I'd realigned the joint it'd started gelling I had to redo that joint 3 times, but I got there in the end next time I may use tooth picks to peg it in position or take things a little slower and wait for on side to dry on the head/tail block before going onto the other side at it were. Easy to clean up an undo re-glue I'm impressed so far and I'll be buying fish glue to and may go totally old school

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

Using HHG is not rocket science, nor is there a great rush in clamping joints. As long as the water bath is around 145º it will be fine, all day long. Personally I do not use a bottle, just a jam container in an electric glue pot with a soundhole cutout as a cover. It probably evaporates faster but allows to control the consistency of the glue by adding hot water from the pot. Sometimes I want the glue to be a bit more liquid, sometimes thicker. I always have a small brush in the hot water for cleanup and for slightly rewarming the joint if need be. A heat gun (or alcohol lamp for the ultra-traditionalist) will also allow to reheat the joint for a nice squeeze out under pressure, that plus cleaning with hot water (brush and rag) makes using HHG easier than Titebond for most applications IMO. HHG also scrapes and sands easily, once dry, compared to TB.
That being said TB1 is a fine glue, but as pointed out HHG allows for easier repair should a joint fail.
I will not get into the supposed tonal advantage as I am not a believer.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Laurent my friend I most certainly agree that using HHG is not rocket science and it is all too easy to have it seem this way until one plays with HHG a bit and experiences for themselves how easy it is to use. Personally it's kind of fun to use too.

Your comment about no great rush had me wondering though. I try to have all clamps in place in 15 - 20 seconds when not preheating anything so it is a bit of a rush for me requiring dry runs and making sure that everything that I need is staged and in reach.

Darryl buddy you are correct if taking the temp of the water bath it is not a good sampling of the glue temp. I learned this yesterday as a matter of fact from David Collins. It's best to have the thermometer in the glue regardless of if using plastic bottles or glass jars and adjust the water temp accordingly.

I started using hide glue when I was with Al, and I'm still using the same setup:

Hide glue in baby food jar in a mug of water on a coffee-cup warmer plate, applied with a brush. The brush has a magnetic handle so I just stick it to one of the bar magnets behind my bench and drop it in the water outside the hide glue jar to re-soften before use (as, of course, it turns into a little hide-glue rock with stick once it dries!).

I mix up 10-12 jars at a time and stick 'em in the freezer until use. Once I start using one, I'll leave it in the fridge. If I'm in a big rush, I'll nuke it for a few seconds to give it a head start on getting back up to gooeyness.

Like Laurent, I'm pretty much used to dropping a little water in and mixing it up or letting it 'steam off' a bit to keep the consistency right. So far as the consistency goes my target is 'just thin enough that I don't have trouble applying it'.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

I mean it's difficult to rush and be accurate at the same time. I'm not taking my time either, but I tend to be fairly relaxed…
As said before the beauty of the thing is adding a little more HHG, or water and/or reheating the joint allows to correct things pretty easily.
One more thing, compared to other glues HHG tends to grab faster, and also the high water content means that in drying it "sucks" the pieces together. I would definitely trust a rubbed joint with HHG, less so with TB1.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

I use fish glue .
No worries about temperature and it's high tack !
I use titebond for repairs along with CA and fish.

I just built 4 guitars with the new Gorilla white glue.
It has amazing grab (tack)
Dries clear and is easy to work with !
I hope you all do a dryfit ??


Mike

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Mike Collins

Darryl,

My suggestion (for starters) would be using Tight bond Original for everything except the following:

Braces: Use HHG. This will give you a farily relaxed introduction to using HHG as you can glue one brace at a time and have easy and quick access to clamp them in place (especially if using a Go Bar Deck).

Fret Board: Use Epoxy. As others have stated, it's just the best adhesive for the job.

Bridge: Use HHG. You'll already have experience using it after doing the braces. Just make sure the underside of the bridge fits the top contour without gaps. Have your clamps ready. I put my clamps in the soundhole before I start so that they're all ready to go when I'm ready to clamp the bridge down. Take several dry practice runs to get your speed down and you should do just fine.

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Thanks,
Blain

http://www.ullrichguitar.com

"89.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot."

A question for those using epoxy on the fret board: does the use of epoxy make removing the fret board more difficult? I have easily removed fret boards glued with Titebond and LMI white glue using a common clothes iron and putty knives, but haven't yet tried removing a fret board that was glued on with epoxy.

I tried removing an epoxied in wilkinson brushing from a guitar... heat won't do it, well it will but your wood will be carbon before it's hot enough for removal. I charred the wood around the brushing (I used a soldering iron) before the epoxy got soft enough for removal and even then it's still quite hard enough to tear wood out. I can't imagine how you can remove an epoxied fretboard without cutting or planing them out.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Various epoxies release at various temperatures with some epoxies requiring more heat than we would want to use for our purposes. Bob Smith and West Systems will release in the 145 - 150F range.