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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:16 am 
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Cocobolo
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So most people would agree that quarter sawn is very important when it comes to top wood. Would you not use if the grain is only 1-3 degrees off quartered? What is the acceptable off-quarter to you? off by 5 degrees, 20 degrees, or?
I just want to get general opinion as to what luthiers tend to use or not use...perhaps more variables...


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:34 am 
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I have yet to finish my first one, but to me it would be a matter of how much of a "high end" instrument I want to make it... So for now I'd be more than willing to go up to around 20/25 degrees I guess.... since anyway they wouldn't be instruments that would be worth that much idunno

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:43 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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To me it's much more a matter of what the Brits call 'horses for courses'. I've used all sorts of wood for tops, and what's important to me is matching the wood to the shape and intended use of the guitar.

If you were lucky enough to see Mark Blanchard's talk on plate tuning at the last H'burg do, he has a great way to find the 'correct' body shape for any particular top. What he does is to join the top, and thickness it a bit on the heavy side, before cutting it to the shape of his largest guitar pattern. He then looks at the Chladni paterns. There are three in particular that he looks at: one that is mostly bending crosswise, one that is mostly bending along the grain, and another that has some of each. Ideally the lengthwise bending mode he looks at actually is bending in both directions as well, and forms a closed 'ring' pattern in the lower bout. If this is the case, and this pattern is not too far from the frequency of the crosswise bending pattern, he will use the top for that shape. If the ring is not closed he will cut the top down to the next smaller size, check that, and so on until he gets the pattern he wants. The third mode he looks at also ideally has 'closed' rings, and is a further check.

What he's looking at is the ratio of lengthwise to crosswise stiffness. Larger guitars are typically wider in relation to their length, and the top wood needs to have high cross grain stiffness in order to close the ring. If the cross wise stiffness is not sufficient for a wide lower bout, then it might work with a narrower one, and cutting the top down successively to smaller sizes matches up the wood characteristics to the shape. Mark notes that it's pretty difficult to get a top to work right by changing the bracing: about all you can do is 'fine tune' it. If the modes won't close on the unbraced top it will be hard to get them to close on the braced one. I measure the lengthwise and crosswise stiffness of the wood directly, and I'm now in the process of figuring out how my data ties in with his.

One thing that seems to relate to the intended use of the guitar is the density of the wood. This has a pretty direct relationship with the lengthwise stiffness, but none to speak of with crosswise. Since the limiting factor in how thin you can make the top is the stiffness required to resist static bridge torque, you can use lengthwise Young's modulus data to settle on a safe thickness for a given piece of wood. Generally speaking the denser woods will end up being thinner, but also a little heavier, at a given stiffness. This seems to bear on two things: high frequency tone and 'headroom'.

A thick, low density top will tend to have a lower 'coincidence frequency'. That's the frequency where the wave length of a bending wave in the top matches the wave length of sound in air. As this frequency is approached the top becomes very efficient at putting out sound. Having a low coincidence frequency helps to give a solid high end sound, I think. I tend to save my lowest density tops for classical guitars, where the low all up weight makes them eaiser to drive with the low string tension, and the high frequency output adds clarity.

The heavier the top is the higher the impedance on the average, all else equal. This means that it's a little harder to drive, but also harder to over drive. This is great on a guitar that's going to be hammered. I use the denser tops on flat picking guitars and 12-strings, and on 'parlor' sized instruments, where the reduced span allows you to make the top thinner and still keep the stiffness up. In these cases there will be plenty of high-end energy in the strings anyway, and you can use a the dynamic range.

There are a lot of other considerations as well, but that's a good start. I've used some pretty open grained and off-quarter tops from time to time, when I thought I could get them to work in a particular case. The really skew cut ones have found a home as harp soundboards, where the resistance to cracking is useful and cross grain stiffness doesn't matter anyway.

To me the biggest problem is cosmetic; and it's not so much an issue for me as it is for the customers. They've been fed all of the legends about tight grain and so on for so long that it's impossible to argue with them. Besides, they're always right, right? I have no idea how many 'Master Grade' tops I've gotten that were so floppy in the crosswise direction as to be hard to find a use for, but they looked really good. OTOH, I've had some really funky looking Red spruce tops, with about eight lines to the inch, red stain marks, and 'racing stripes' of hard grain, that were acoustically killers. Maybe some day people will learn to listen with their ears rather than their eyes.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:33 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Alan Carruth wrote:
I use the denser tops on flat picking guitars and 12-strings, and on 'parlor' sized instruments, where the reduced span allows you to make the top thinner and still keep the stiffness up. In these cases there will be plenty of high-end energy in the strings anyway, and you can use a the dynamic range.

Alan, could you expand a bit on the part about parlor size? I would think that even reducing the thickness, one ends up with a heavier top for a given stiffness by using a denser top. So is the idea that the parlor has more string energy relative to the amount of real estate that has to be moved, and can take advantage of the headroom without becoming much less responsive?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:18 pm 
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Koa
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Alan Carruth wrote:
What he's looking at is the ratio of lengthwise to crosswise stiffness. Larger guitars are typically wider in relation to their length, and the top wood needs to have high cross grain stiffness in order to close the ring. If the cross wise stiffness is not sufficient for a wide lower bout, then it might work with a narrower one, and cutting the top down successively to smaller sizes matches up the wood characteristics to the shape. Mark notes that it's pretty difficult to get a top to work right by changing the bracing: about all you can do is 'fine tune' it. If the modes won't close on the unbraced top it will be hard to get them to close on the braced one. I measure the lengthwise and crosswise stiffness of the wood directly, and I'm now in the process of figuring out how my data ties in with his.


It makes sense that bracing can only do so much to make up for a top that has too much lateral stiffness for a narrow body. And I've always thought that the bridge is so stiff (compared to the top) that the lateral stiffness of the top matters mostly outside the ends of the bridge. I've always thought that is where graduating the top thickness comes into play. Is changing the lateral stiffness through thinning the perimeter different than starting with a top with lower lateral stiffness?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:45 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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From the sound of it.... I have 2- Jumbo sized tops that might make some fine ukeleles....

At 3/16" thick -- you can about roll them up into a complete circle... they are that floppy cross grain... Tap tone is like damp paper machie.

Long grain... they are about average.

Thanks

John


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:28 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Howard Klepper asked:
"I would think that even reducing the thickness, one ends up with a heavier top for a given stiffness by using a denser top. So is the idea that the parlor has more string energy relative to the amount of real estate that has to be moved, and can take advantage of the headroom without becoming much less responsive?"

More or less.

Barnard Richardson pointed out in an article in the Catgut Journal ('Simple Models as a Basis of Guitar Design': May '02)that the power output of a mode was related to the ratio of Area/mass of the mode. With guitars we're working to a structural limit: to get high output we want the lightest top we can get that is just stiff enough to hold up to the bridge torque over the long term. As the span of the top increases you have to 'beef up' the structure, and it turns out that as you do the mass goes up faster than the area. Thus he feels that it's easier to make a loud small guitar than a loud big one.

If this is the case (and I think it is), then you're probably not losing too much by using a dense top on a parlor guitar. Certainly you could get even more power out with a low density top, but then you have all of the drawbacks (the softer wood tends to dent more, 'overdriving', and so on) of the soft wood, too. Since I make both classicals and steel strings, I tend to save the low density small tops for classicals, and use the higher density oes on parlors.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:38 pm 
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"I have no idea how many 'Master Grade' tops I've gotten that were so floppy in the crosswise direction as to be hard to find a use for, but they looked really good."

It is sad.. Cosmetics always seem to dominate peoples impressions of wood. Particularily tops. I've had some of those "Master Grade" tops you can almost roll into a tube. Big manufacturers fuel that concept too. I've been told by a few customers that more often than not cosmetics and cosmetic consistency is more of a priority than the actual tonal quality of woods.

What really bothers me is selling tops with absolutely amazing stiffness and tap for next to nothing because the tree has a few dark streaks/smudges.. There are a lot of tops with amazing stiffness and color issues on those imported guitars. They are just hiding under a thin layer of stain/paint.

One day when all the old growth is gone people will be chasing after all these "paint grade" sets just like people are gobbling up BRW stumps they probably would have burned in the forest 20 years ago. :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:39 pm 
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Don't worry Jay, you take all those paint grade, stiff and pingy tops and put them aside for me. I'll gladly pay you a pittance for them rather than those large factories paint them black, or pink or red or....

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:05 am 
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I don't have anything against painted tops, I actually really like gloss black tops.
I just don't like seeing really great wood go onto these disposable super cheap guitars because it has some visual issues.

Ah well. ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:40 am 
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Puts food on the table brother, food on the table.

Now, it's getting about time for a visit I think, eh?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:12 am 
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As long as I can get really well-quartered top wood, that's all I'll use.

As for the cross-grain stiffness issue, with regard to body width, bracing, and perimeter thinning, I have my own bit of logic that I base my methods on for now:

Cross-grain stiffness is dramatically less than long-grain. On most guitar shapes, the lower bout is wider than it is long, or roughly the same. So, the top is inherently much more flexible across that area than along it. The bridge stiffens it up a lot, of course, but, nevertheless, I don't worry about being too stiff across the grain. On the contrary, it seems to me that because the perimeter area to the outside ("east" and "west") of the lower bout is inherently more flexible because of the grain orientation, it doesn't need to be thinned, so I don't. I only thin the perimeter "south" of the bridge (along the bottom of the lower bout) and in the area of the waist. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Until I feel the need to revise.

I'm building a guitar with a "reject" grade lutz top right now - well-quartered, stiff, tight and consistent grain, rings like a bell, and... fabulously streaked with distinct shades of grey, pink, brown, and white. I think it looks cool.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:52 am 
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Interesting discussion... Right now I am building my number 4 with a cheap Swiss spruce top. It has a very good long-grain stiffness, typical of quality Alpine spruce, OK weight, but it is cut offquarter and the crossgrain stiffness is easily felt as being low. I thicknessed it the same as an equal density/stiffness 100% quartered top I used before, but when refining bracing I was more conservative in shaving height off the transverse braces. I will also make sure I make a stiff bridge for it (in certain cases classical bridges can be made quite flexy at the wings)
Not sure it is enough to make it sound good, but we need to wait and see. One part of me hopes it will actually sound richer and more open from the start when compared to a too stiff top!
In terms of sweetness and harmonic richness, my first guitar is the best and it has a thinner, and less dense top (Italian spruce). What I built later in denser (Lutz and Alpine) spruce seem to be more on the dry side, and more fundamental.

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