Official Luthiers Forum!

I noticed that guitar back and side sets tends to be more expensive (per board foot) compared to similarly sized (but 4/4 or 4/8) pieces of the same wood. I realize that most guitar back and sides are high grade and bookmatched and have rather strict requirements as far as seasoning goes. But for experimentation or whatever (like for students or just making a budget guitar) anyone have lumbers from mills and ability to resaw them be willing to sell me a few (doesn't have to be matched) sets of various wood (doesn't matter which, could be maple, walnut, or other domestic species) at better prices than "tonewood" suppliers?

I'd go for lumber mills but I can't seem to find any here in Taiwan... I am sure they're around. But even if I did fine one I have no ability to resaw it.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Well, how much don't you want to spend.

Allied Lutherie has pretty good deals on 2nd grade EIR at $34 for a set. Hard to beat that price.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Their prices are for side or back only, not complete set. The prices are about the same as LMI for complete sets.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

No, that's for a back set and a side set. $17 for the back set and $17 for the side set. Half the price of LMI's 2nd grade.

And that's to expensive for you? How much are you hoping to spend? When ordering for Allied they are pretty good at matching a side set with a back set even if you're order in the 2nd grade. You just have to ask.

Anyway, that's probably the least expensive wood you're going to find, that will be "close" to each other.

If matching really doesn't matter, I'd just email all the small shop suppliers here on the forum and ask them about orphaned sides and backs.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

One other problem arises. Allied has a $50.00 minimum order.

_________________
"After forty-nine years of violin building, I have decided that the search for a varnish is similar to the fox hunt. The fun is in the hunt."
Jack Batts Maker and Repairer of Fine Violins

A *little* higher price than lumber is an understatement... but you have to really be creative to get usable wood on the cheap. Taylor did the Pallet guitar. Wood is out there all over.... You can use a Spruce 2x4 if you are willing to do a 13 piece top. It will work.

Do the board foot calcs and a Top set is about 1/2 board feet.
A Back/sides set is about 1 board foot.

So...
A "Cheap" back and sides set sells for $30.00/bd ft....
and a 1A top sells for $50.00/bd ft.

Compare this to plain boring Maple lumber that sells for $4.00/bd ft...
and 2x4 spruce which sells for $0.75/bd ft.

Highway robbery.... Right?
Nope... Not really. You can go through 500 lumberyard boards to find 1 Guitar board that is probably good enough for backs and sides... whereas the Guitar Tonewood guys work with the mills get it cut right from the beginning..... AND.... they can't exactly sell it for anything else in particular.... They would make some pretty small shelves or a very dainty desk or dollhouse paneling or something.

You have a couple "Cheap" options....
1. Find a woodworking group and resaw some lumberyard wood.... like $9.00/bd-ft Mahogany mills out into probably about $15.00 - $20.00 per Back and Sides set after you loose kerf and waste... and you may end up with a *Ton* of stuff you can't use for anything in particular..... Too thin for necks and too short for bindings.... Be prepared to get intimately familiar with your local lumber yard guys.

2. Or....if you can find a Small business Sawmill guy and pay him to mill your log exactly right from the start... Then you end up with 600 Back and Sides sets worth of wood for about $1,000.00 -- or $1.67 each. The downside there is 2 years drying and if the tree is a dud (Weird twist, too many knots, nails, rot, whatever) -- you still pay.... and where is the variety in 600 back and sides sets from the same tree?

But... if you just want to buy something that will work with minimum fooling around... and is already the right size, has usable grain, etc... Buy the low grade sets, they will make a fine guitar.

Good luck

John

True, but I'll bet there are many other things he could/would need to order as well to get up to that $50 min .

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Plenty of good wood can be found at lumberyards, woodworking shops and the like. I have and am addicted to it.
One has to go through the piles and be nice with the guys working there. Bring a pair of gloves and a small pocket knife.
Then one has to resaw boards into sets, eventually thickness sand them and deal with a lot of labour and a fair amount of waste.
Most of the waste can become FB, bridge, binding or headplate blanks. Or stock for purfling laminations. But cutting and resawing all that takes time too.
In the end the wood may be much cheaper to start with, but what about the labour? Does it count for nothing or as added value?
I know for me it is often cheaper to buy sets from reputable dealers. Economically it's only worth it for very expensive exotics.

I ordered a dozen $17 EIR side sets from Allied for laminating double-sides a while back. I was pleasantly surprised: most are excellent quality and the defects on what would be AAA sets can be put outside of the template without a problem.

_________________
Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Hey Tai Fu,

I build because I love the whole experience. To build an instrument, even with entry level success, is to build something wonderful that shall continue to unfold delivering intrigue and joy to whom ever owns it for many years to come as it continues to develop and change with the passage of time.

I love the challenge of this craft, I love the science of this craft, the art and endless possibilities. I love the potential! Yes that's it! For for so many of us, whether we like to admit it or not, it must surely be about the potential. The potential to improve our efforts with understanding and experience, the potential offered by new methods, learned skills and experience, the potential of alternate bracings or material and the potential in the wood.

In fact when you think about it, unless you build for a living, there really is nothing else for us in this craft other than potential, and passion. The passion drives us to invest our spare time taking us out to our workshop in our attempts to reveal the potentials. Therefore, given the amount of free time required to reveal these potentials, I must wonder why anyone would consider using 2nd grade wood after completing their first or second instrument and proving to themselves that they can in fact build a guitar? Is your time worth nothing? If what you 'feel' may work is worthy of your time and effort to put it into practice, does it not also deserve the best possible opportunity to do so when you select material?

IMHO life is far too short for cheap wood. We have vendors here at the OLF such as Tim Spittle of Australian Tonewoods, Steve Roberson of Colonial Tonewoods and Bob Cefalu of RC Tonewoods who can supply you with first grade wood at very reasonable prices. Such wood will not only prove worthy of your best efforts, but more importantly, it will challenge you to lift your efforts to their very best so you 'can' reveal the true potential in the wood.

Good luck

Kim

Tai fu - For playing/experimenting it doesn't take too long to resaw a board with a hand saw. Just have to go slow and keep the cut straight. $6 got me a back and side set of poplar from home depot.

Thanks for the encouragement/links

The reason I'd go for second grade/unmatched wood is because sometimes those unmatched wood might be great for other things like headplate veneer or bindings. Also I got ideas about wanting to try something completely original but I'd like to use something really cheap because they are something that hasn't been tried before and if I break a good side then I wasted a ton of money. So I like to get good wood as well but only on something that I have gotten the process down on, for something that are in the experimental stage it would make sense to use cheap wood to see how it goes together. Also now that getting a job is getting harder it would make sense to want to continue this hobby without breaking the bank.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Dude!
Nice avator/Logo!

_________________
Support the OLF! Bookmark our STEWMAC link Today!
Lance@LuthiersForum.com

There's one in Chia-Yi county. Or you can visit my shop in Tainan. I have some sets of EIR, Sonokeling, Zebrawood, and Sapele I wouldn't mind passing on.

The low cost sets from Allied are only $26 a complete set (back and sides) if you buy 13 or more sets. Buying more sets allows you to match them for grain and color better. They are sized for dreadnoughts, so if you build smaller instruments you may be able to cut around some of the cosmetic defects. Shipping to Taiwan might negate much of the savings however.

I quite often have the debate with people about why wood from the "Dealers" costs so much more in comparason to the cost of raw lumber.
yes you could go to a lumber yard and pick through the stacks to find a nice quarter sawn kiln dried plank of whatever wood and resaw it yourself and save yourself some money.
and this is a great way of getting some high grade sets a bit cheaper.
but if you think of doing this on any kind of scale larger than a few sets then you will quickly see why the tonewood dealers charge the premiums they do.

for a start when you buy wood wholesale you are usualy buying through and through cut boards in there raw form from the mill or wholesaler that is often wet.
out of this one cubic meter only 50% (if your lucky) will be quarter sawn.
there will also be defects, checks, bug holes etc etc.
so you have to dry the wood first (if its not kiln dried).
once its dried you have to select the suitable wood for guitars and billitise it ready for resawing.
This whole peocess can take quite some time and manpower to achive.
quite often you are then left with a large amount of wastage and wood that is not is suitable for guitar making.
this either has to be sold on to another trade such as cabinet makers or the cost has to be swallowed by the finished product.

once its been dried (usualy to about 12% at this stage) and billitised it is ready for resawing.
i dont know about other dealers but i cut very very slowely (about 30 sets in an average resawing day including interuptions etc)
this takes time which again adds money to the finished product.

whilst resawing you will also run into defects,cut thin,mis cut etc which will further reduce your yeild and add to the final cost.
allthough you should get 5 slices from 1" side billit in reality you rarely get full yeild from a billit which has to be added to the price.

right so youve resawn and all your sets are cut so now you have to sticker and stack and further dry the sets to a stable 8% ish.
this will take another 1-3 months depending on the method and also adds money on to the end product.

all this before you include bandsaw blades sandpaper workshop expensis wages, not to mention rent and all the other costs of running a business.
all this adds up to push the price of the wood up for the end user.

its an involved process selecting the best wood for job all the way through to getting it resawn and out to the end user and unfortunatly this can add to the cost of the wood.

all that said i think the dealers should make an effort to make cheaper woods and low grade and mis matched sets available becouse there is a market for that.

the fact is the low grade stuff just doesent get cut becouse of the costs involved in cutting it and the fact the profits margins are so low.

but that said i myself tend to cut head veneers etc out of the mismatched sets and raelly think about passing them on to newer builders at a low price.

in the future i will try to keep some orphan sets aside for people who want to practice.

i also think that resawing wood yourself can be a great way to save money and get some great wood but just becouse it costs you less to resaw yourself than to buy from the bigger dealers does not mean that tonewood dealers are being un fair with there prices (not that you have impiled such).

when you buy wood from any company you are also paying for the service they provide and hopefully good wood that is well selected and ready to use imidiatly.

Tai fu i probably have lots of mis matched sets here that would suit your porpose especialy with the cheaper woods like ovangkol but i suspect shipping may make it prohibabtive for you,

joel.

StewMac sells practice wood. Or at least the used to.

_________________
Greg
http://garibaldiinstruments.com/