Official Luthiers Forum!

Okay guys/gals, what are your opinions of the tonal qualities, finishing, etc. of any ziricote guitars you've built. Just received my first set from the Zootman and it's beautiful. Appears to be pore free which is a huge plus. I've heard of the tendencies to be a little brittle when bending but my main concern is its tone versus, say, EI RW, Mad RW, Honduran RW, Brazilian RW, etc.

Thanks for any input. Even though this stuff is a little pricey I could see the advantages of using it, labor-wise, as long as the tone is there. FYI, I build mainly bluegrass-style dreads and deep-body OM's.

Steve R

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"We might not be big but we sure are slow"

Bends as easy as anything I know. Tonally? What do you hear when to touch the plates? To me it has more damping than any rosewood, a little bit like Macassar ebony.
Beware of not thinning it too much in spite of the weight, and keep some CA and a hose next to the guitar: it really likes to crack.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Let that new set acclimate to your shop for at least 3 weeks !
It's a great B&S wood!
You can thin it like a Martin -or if you really want a screamer-leave the back thicker !
And make the top supple !!


MIke

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Mike Collins

I have used it as a fretbord several times with no cracking at all.
I agree it is a little brittle so beware when pulling frets.
Otherwise ,sounds fine,looks great but darkens with time.

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How long is that in luthyears?

I've built several classicals with ziricote and find that the guitars have all had very rich and complex tonal palettes. I would not say, however, that the sound was significantly different than those I have built with a dense rosewood such as cocobolo. I flood with CA and have never had a problem with cracking. The sides bend very easily and the wood finishes with French polished shellac like a dream.

I am interested in this thread as I have a beautiful set for my first REAL guitar when I get comfortable enough to build with it.


Laurent, Are you advocating thinning it more than other woods or just that because it is not as heavy as rosewoods that the tendency is to leave it too thick?


Mike and Laurent, would you guys mind debating this (or clarifying it some for me)?
I am not sure if Mike's comment conflicts with Laurent's or not, or if Laurent's was particularly meant for the sides only?
The problem for newbies like me is understanding relative terms like thicker and thinner.
I assume that leaving the back too thick would add risk of cracking when adding a radius to it, but there' part of me thinking that making it too thin might do the same.
I'd like to know the thickness that it should bend like butter.


Gary, can you expand on that please? Do you do that on the inside or outside Or are you referring to the fretboard only?
By the sound of it, you just pour on some CA and spread it out? Any effect on color (I hear CA tends to yellow) and if you use it one the outside, does that limit the types of finish you can use? I plan on FPing mine.

Thanks All!

Rob, ziricote is heavy, as heavy or more than cocobolo for example, and very brittle.
At fretboard or bridge thickness it is not much of an issue.
But in the range of thickness for a rosewood-type back (typically between .090" and .070") it is wise to flood it with CA, it will wick in all the potential cracks that can't be seen with normal eyes and prevent much aggravation later on.
Making the back thinner increases the potential for cracks due to RH changes (dryness), small shocks and so on. Even at .090" any hardwood will conform to even a steep back radius without problem.
IME not all CA become yellow and this is only an issue on spruce (or light woods) when it gets in the end grain, it is then preferable to seal with de-waxed shellac before flooding with CA. Not an issue with dark hardwoods, again IME. The CA gets sanded back to bare wood anyway, and what remains is deep in the pores and potential cracks.
I do not think Mike's comment conflicts with mine, a thicker/stiffer back tends to increase projection and power perhaps, all other things being equal. At the cost of weight… It all depends on what the goals are for a specific guitar.
For the sides I wouldn't go thinner than .075" before bending.
I used double sides on the ziricote guitar I built recently anyway, in order to fully support this brittle wood, so I thinned them to .060".

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Thanks Laurent. That's great info.

I also found this thread..
viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=17220&p=245048&hilit=flooding+CA#p245048

...and from it i learned that flooding with CA is not needed but that it is absolutely critical to use it.

I have to say the need for a respirator has me put off, so i will likely not flood but try *something* to look for cracks and then use it locally.
Anyone with a least toxic recommendation for what type of fluid to use to check for cracks? Naptha was mentioned. I haven't checked whether that will kill me instantly yet, but any other preferences? Preferably something that will just destroy my genetic makeup without killing me, as i'm done having kids anyway...

I may seal the inside with Shellac to at least reduce the RH concerns.

I may sell the set and look for something less prone to make me cry. Everytime i think about using this wood i feel like i'm being driven toward a manic-depressive disorder. *sigh*

I like Zircote but it has developed a bad rep and has the nick name of "Mexican Crack Wood". Back in 2003, during the Heladsbug guitar festival, it got quite dry. There were three different builders exhibiting Zircote guitars and I am sure there were others too that I was not aware of. However, three Zircote guitars cracked during the second day of exibition. All three were seasoned vet builders too. If you or the owner can maintain a relatively constant (40% - 55%) RH level then you have no worries, otherwise be prepared ...

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tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

I do pore fill (easy to fill) and do not flood with CA. I've built three with it, and no cracking issues except when resawing some boards.

Nowhere near as oily as a rosewood (sands much better), but similarly hard and heavy. Damping seems to me to be lower than maccassar ebony.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I've never gotten crack in a Ziricote guitar.
I meassure the weight of all sets i get.
Then let them sit stickered for at least 2 years .
Then measure again.
My shop stays around 45% all the time and all the sets loose weight ;which is water lost.

I leave the back around .100 (2.5mm)and arch it to a 30' radius.

Get some & try it !

Mike

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Mike Collins