Official Luthiers Forum!

I get my indian rosewood these days from timber merchant that imports indian rosewood ready cut from the mills (i have found to dificult to deal with the mills these days for a small company like mine).
anyway he has just recived the new prices for stock and due to the econimic crisis prices have risen 50%.

this is worrying news for me becouse as any of you have purchased indian rosewood from me in the last few months know i have been priding myself on keeping my prices low and quality high.

i am not sure where this puts me in regard to indian rosewood but think my prices will have to rise from £18 for very low grade to £80 for the highest grades (rare) upward to who knows what.

i am not sure if it will be worth while stocking it anymore at the prices i would have to pay for it.

i am sure that these prices are being introduced right across board from most of the mills and wil surely effect you folks in the states as well.

so we have a situation where quality is down (from 10 years ago) by a long way and prices are up i am sure this will price indian rosewood out for a few makers with regards to its reputation of a cheap rosewood.

anyway i would suggest that now is a really good time buy indian rosewood whilst dealers are making the most of stock bought before the price increase and before we start seeing the price increases at the street level.

at the moment my indian rosewood can be cheaper than plain or ribbon mahogany when you think of it like that its a bargain wood at the moment.

I am not sure if the price increase will be permanent but i suspect that the prices will stay high once this situation has calmed down.

anyway i thought this situation might interest a few of you,

joel.

It could be an exchange rate issue. The pound is worth 50% less than it was a few months ago compared to the US dollar. Any trade through India, I would suppose, goes through reserve currency like most foreign trade (ie: everything is converted to American dollars and then to the other currency) and under that your price in pounds might be up a lot even if the US dollar price didn't change.

Are they billing you in pounds or dollars?

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

That is a very good point. I heard on a radio news program last night that British pound is in serious trouble. What is going on over there?

BTW, I think a lot of corporate CEOs (banking and finance) around the world should be let go. Their contribution to this financial mess is unimaginable and horrifying.

Mike

Just use Bubinga... they're cheaper than indian rosewood and looks much better. They might be a little hard on tools though (they are quite hard...)

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I have seen the writing on the wall with respect to EIR for some time. The quality keeps going down and the price keeps going up. EIR is good wood. Finding dark, straight grained forest grown sets is tough. What was once the norm is now a treat to find.

Stock up now.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Sometimes I wonder as wood becomes harder and harder to find (which is inevitable) will those carbon fiber guitars end up becoming cheaper than wood guitars? I mean thing with plastics/composites once you got the process down you can make them relatively cheap...

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

there is the exchange issue of course the pound is awfull at the moment but no the actual price in dollers has risen by 50% and then add the exchange rate and we have a serious problem here.

but the economic crisis a double edged sword for me becouse on one hand i have the problem that any stock i buy from the states and europe is costing me a whole lot more so i have to put up my prices.
but on the other hand my current stock is sudenly very atractivly priced to folks in the states so i am getting more orders from the states than ever,
especialy for species like amazon rosewood, mad rose and old stock cuban (just got some more by the way from the same 150 year old stock as last time ).
many people in the states are taking advantage of the exchange rates which is good for me but i am worryed about the price increases i will to incure to cope with higher exchange rates on the pound.
a while ago it was $2 to the pound now it is more like 1.4$ to the pound

that means that £140 set of mad rose that used to be $280 is now $204 the differnce will more than pay for shipping.

anyway i digress it may be just be here in the uk and with this one supplier but of course i am one of the first to see it becouse i am looking at restocking soon.

i cant help thinking how this will effect the whole indian rosewood guitar market.

i mean think about it, if the price increases by 50% its not just the one off hobby makers that it effects but it especialy affects the factories that use alot of it on there cheaper model guitars.
if its starts becoming more expensive (which it will due a niumber of reasons including availability and demand) then we will see the large makers starting to use cheap alternatives like sonokeling (which we are allready seeing) and reserving indian rosewood for the better high end guitars.

sorry i am babling i am sure it will be a long before we see price increases past on to end users but i thought it was an interesting development that many makers might find interesting.

as for using bubinga i do offer it sometimes but i dont think it will ever be used as an alternative to indian rosewood becouse of difficult salability and problems with working properties.
that said we may see some of the factories using as a option for there cheaper models.
i have seen it marketed as african rosewood which an allmost fraudulent claim as its not even a leguminosae let alone a dalbergia.
calling it this does however make it easier to sell the guitar.
however as guitar in its own right is can be lovely.

anyway i love indian rosewood i think its a highly underated wood these days and it would be a shame to see the availability decline in guitar making becouse of price increases.

Joel.

tai fu i just noticed you changed your name to fret wank guitars.

thats a very offensive name here in the uk where wank is another name for masterbation.
i know its not an offensive word in the states (isnt there a beer called wankers) but us prudish brits may well take offence.

not me though i think its a great name puts me in mind steve vai wannabies farnticly caresing the necks of your guitars

anyway i am sure you are aware of the conotations hence the name fret wank but i just thought i should point out that some folks might not like it,

also in answer to your question yes undoubtably carbon fiber and even plastic guitar will one day replace wood on the cheaper end of the market that is ineveitable but wood will allways be considered the premium option for a number of reasons.

Joel.

Seems like the prices might be coming down soon. People aren't going to shelling out $2500 for brand named guitars soon so there is going to be a lack of sales in rosewood. Look for layoffs coming soon to the big companys and not so big. Ask John Mayes about it.

We've still got four-piece tops and laminated flatwood sides and backs to go through before we see composite guitars becoming the norm.

The prices manufacturers pay for wood are massively different than what smaller builders or tonewood dealers pay. Think on the order of 1/2 to 1/7 the price depending on the item. There are manufacturers who outsource and get their ebony bridges complete and delivered for less than the price of a bridge blank from SM or LMII.

With the way PRS pretty much made quilted maple go 'commercially extinct', we could see manufacturers making it a real hassle for smaller builders to get their hands on good wood in the future.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

good point bob but if the smaller dealers and builders are seeing increases then you can be sure that the factories will be as well.

and yes they will be buying in bulk mixed grade lots at about 1/4 the price of small order companys (anthing under $5,000 an order on a regular basis)but they are also buying from the lower grades and the higher grades go out to small makers and tonewood dealers.
even a small price increase will make the factories look elsewhere for alternatives as they need to keep fixed costs down and profit up.
we are seeing alot of sonokeling on the market being sold as so called old growth and this all about cutting costs.
in theory a manufacturer can sell sonokeling as indian rosewood becouse both are the same wood (dalbergia latfolia). but commercialy sonokeling is plantation grown dalbergia latfolia grown on plantations in indonesia etc and is very much lower quality.

I dont think the factories will go down the route of four peice tops etc but you never know.
i know that high end luthiers are more willing to consider these options now as the good high quality wood becomes rarer but i think we will see indian rosewood being used less and less till eventualy it comes full circle and we start seeing it go for silly prices like we did with rio (allthough it will never have that kudos).

rio was considered the standard rosewood 40 years ago and sets were not that much more than a current indian rosewood set.
now look at the prices its all about supply and demand.

i still think that some unscrupulous country,s deliberatly limit exports of a wood to push up the prices i think this is the current case with cocobolo as it grows like a weed in mexico but all the old growth logs have heavily exploited for the timber trade (of which guitar makers are only a small margin in contrast to indian rosewood).

anyway i digress i do think that the market will see cheaper plastic and carbon fiber guitars (over the next 10 years) as wood prices rise we are allready seeing alot of cheap ovation copy,s and that is likely to increase and timber prices rise (which they will with oil prices, inflation and econimic unrest) we may also see some companys using cheap Finnish and european fast grown spruces for tops.
i also belive that grading will change from being all about the cosmetic to being about physical qualitys of the wood.
and in reality it will be the larger factories that will push these trends as they start looking for cheaper alternatives for there guitars.

it will be interesting to see what happens in the market in the 10 years and i will be keeping a close eye on what the the manufactures are doing and that effects trends on this level,

joel.