Official Luthiers Forum!

Well, today in the Houston Chronical is an article about certified forest products being used in Martin Guitars:
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/main/6225640.html

Small mention also made of Gibson's efforts.

Cool!

_________________
Steve Walden
Aspiring Builder,
Bartlesville, OK

Now Martin start using Ovangkol (Mozambique) and black limba ("Democratic" Republic of Congo). It's not a green choice.

Seriously? They're really using wood from the "DRC?" Anything out of the "DRC"...well, at the very least, one can't trust its origin.

I wonder how many non-green guitars they make compared to "green" guitars?

_________________
Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

Lots of woods come from DRC : wenge, sapeli, black limba etc ..
There's a human drama at the same time, it's war, so nobody care about the trees. Illegal exploitation (the wood is free).

When I bought my Martin guitar in 1999, I chose an SWD (Smart Wood Dread) model purely on it's tone and looks. Back then I had no appreciation of the increasing rarity of certain tonewoods. I think they only make a few hundred of them a year - a very small percentage of their overall production - largely due to there not being enough good "certified" wood available.

_________________
Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

As I recall, you always rip the suckers off!

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

The amount of timber used around the world for the Guitar industry is very small.
It is the wood chip and pulp industry that has caused the problem. Lets grow hemp for paper.
And if logging companys were to selective log and leave the smaller trees to grow and then replant trees as they go.
The World would not have the problems we now have.
Regards Robert,

James Kunstler calls that "blowing green smoke up people's arses."
(Hopefully the profanity brigade is only active in US English…).

Here at Home Depot in Maine I am able to purchase "certified" construction lumber coming from Germany. Now if only I could start that "Hybrid" Escalade to drive 30 miles and purchase one of those German 2 x 4, I will feel I contributed to the world in a positive way.

_________________
Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

I totally agree with this.

If this weren't JUST a marketing ploy (and it is) - then all Martin is doing is addressing their own impact on the environment in a laughably insignificant way.

_________________
Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

I see both sides of this issue.

First of all, "Green" is a meaningless word. Kind of like "All Natural" on a food label. Uranium and cow pies are all natural but I wouldn't want to eat them.

And yes, a big company making 1 out of every 1000 guitars from a traceable source isn't necessarily making an impact and can be accused of being hypocritical.

On the other hand, it's beyond question that the way we're using old growth wood is not sustainable and all efforts to bring attention to that, real or cynical, can help change awareness.

Look at what happened with smoking in the US. My dad is a retired pathologist. He saw firsthand the effects of smoking and quit in the early 60's. It took awhile for the rest of the US to catch on. But bit by bit, things added up until critical mass was reached and things changed in a big way.

Same thing seems to be happening with global warming.

It's gotta start somewhere with guitars.

_________________
http://www.chassonguitars.com

Hi Kent,
I could talk for hours about this subject first of all I do not believe green is a meaningless word. but I do agree with you that it is beyond question that the way we are using up old growth wood is not sustainable, but if Old growth wood was only selective logged that is only pick out the best logs and Value add for the best use that is for musical instruments and high quality furniture instead of wood chipping, there would not be this problem. this is a subject I am very passionate about, I have planted thousands of trees in my life but I also believe old growth trees that have reached the end of there life should be put to there best use and not be made into cardboard I could go on and on but I do not think you want me to write a book.
Think green be green start thinking of 3 piece backs in guitars.
Regards Robert.

Thats a shame Todd, no need to bow out of the discussion or drink Kool Aid.
There is a good Whisky here if you want.
Regards Robert,

I'm still interested in bamboo guitars. Yes, I know, some are making them.

However, production processes may make it not so green.

BTW, Todd is spot on.

Mike

Todd, I did not think I was getting into politics or religion I was just talking about making the best use of old growth timber. To give you an idea old growth Tasmanian Red Myrtle.
It takes about 3 cubic metres of log to get i cubic metre of guitar sets.
Return to the Tasmanian economy appropriately $20,000 and thats before it gets to the States and is value added even more turned into guitars.
3 cubic metres of Red Myrtle turned into wood chips return to the economy of Tasmania $300.00 big difference thats all I am saying is make better use of old growth timbers.
Regards Robert

It is important to understand, study and analyze. It is more difficult to approach than to mock and disparage

Robert, I think most here would agree with your sentiment. It would be nice if things did work that way. Unfortunately, most logging entities (I purposely don't use the word companies because it's simply not accurate) are looking for a quick, easy buck. What's happening with illegal logging in Russia (the logs are then shipped to China, sawed, and sold to subcontractors for major manufacturers) is a travesty. Practices elsewhere in the world are infrequently better.



I don't know. I can see your point with regard to labeling. The word "green" has become more a marketing tool than a practice. Actually, it's always been, no? I can also see how the issue of sustainable commercial practice has become a piece of political currency. Different political factions want to claim or defame it for various reasons. Still, I think it's a relevant and important issue, especially in the world of lutherie.

Ultimately, the Martin, Taylor, and Gibsons of the world will have to take the lead with more than half-baked rhetoric. They are, after all, using the most wood for guitars and making the most money from it. Only they can change their own practices. And only they have the money and resources to curb the wasteful (mis-)use of instrument woods.


Count me in!

Not sure what he was referring to but the kool-aid remark sounded mocking and/or disparaging to me. Maybe I misunderstood.



For backs, sides, and necks, there are plenty of alternatives to rain forest wood, many that are already market accepted, some that are sustainable by any definition, and more are becoming accepted all the time. I'm more concerned about top wood.



Not sure what you mean.



Who's "we"?

Yes, greed is hard to overcome. And the realistic and pragmatic use of money and our personal energy should be a priorty.

Like entropy (or a buffing wheel), it takes a lot more energy to build something than to ruin it. But if nothing else, those of us who build guitars are persitent. One of my goals is to start bringing that persistence to a critical look at the way I use resources. Seems like this is an appropriate place to talk about that.

_________________
http://www.chassonguitars.com

Hi Kent, I see from your website that you have green links, this is good to see.
As for using rain forest timbers for musical instuments I do not see this as the problem as it is only a small amount of the timber used around the world.
Regards Robert

Good to see discussion on these topics and good to see Martin making an attempt to change their ways. Whether marketing or a genuine attempt to change, in a hundred years this style of guitar will be the norm and only the very rich will be able to afford a solid wood guitar as we know it today. There will be another 4 billion people on earth by then.
One of humans biggest failings is our inability to accept the consequences of our collective actions. Whether deforestation or climate change or pollution, we can ignore the warnings for a while, but we can't avoid the consequences.
Dom

Hi Dominic, As you were saying it is good to see a discussion like this going on the forum.
I had a couple of meeting here in Tasmanian island state of Australia last year with Rick Turner, & I have spoke with alot of luthier's the past 2 years and things will change, there is many alternative timbers out there including many here in Australia that if used will take some of the pressure off the other species and Taylor guitars are allready using tasmanian blackwood, and if the luthiers of the world were only do do business with companys that encouraged replanting, well we will get there I hope, that is what keeps me going hope.
Regards Robert