Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Fri Jul 25, 2025 8:12 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:08 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:26 am
Posts: 1041
Location: sweden
First name: Lars
Last Name: Stahl
City: Stockholm
Country: Sweden
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Ok, so after been advised or recommended to make more of valleys instead of peaks on the bracings, I carved/planed some more on the bracings as I "assumed" you ment. Hope this is better in your eyes ??
Feel free to comment !!! infact, Comment !! :D :D
I also ad some thin soundhole bracings as also was mentioned.

Click on the photos for larger view.

Attachment:
bracingnew3.jpg
Attachment:
bracingnew1.jpg
Attachment:
bracingnew2.jpg
Attachment:
bracingnew4.jpg
Attachment:
bracingnew5.jpg
Lars.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:11 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:26 am
Posts: 1041
Location: sweden
First name: Lars
Last Name: Stahl
City: Stockholm
Country: Sweden
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Forgot to attach some "before" photos. so here are 2 before.
Attachment:
brace.jpg
Attachment:
bracing1.jpg


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:15 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:45 pm
Posts: 53
Location: North Georgia
Lars - How much did that change the tap tone?

_________________
Eddie Lee


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:18 pm 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian
Old Growth Brazilian

Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:56 am
Posts: 10707
Location: United States
Do you still like the tops responce?????


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:24 pm 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 13633
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
It looks great Lars - super clean too! :D [:Y:] [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap]

If I recall correctly someone had commented on the bridge plate size indicating that it was kind of large. If I also recall correctly this top is a little thin too.

Ervin Somogyi is known for thin tops and larger bridge plates so in hindsight you may have the right size bridge plate after all.

In any event I am sure that this will be a very fine sounding and looking guitar and an exceptional first!

Bra jobbat min vän!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:25 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:26 am
Posts: 1041
Location: sweden
First name: Lars
Last Name: Stahl
City: Stockholm
Country: Sweden
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Honestly it strange enough didn´t change much in top tone ?? the small change might be my way I am holding it. and I might feel it took away a smal part of the tap tone, I feel it was a tiny bit more responsive before, But like I said I might have held it differently or so ?? . And also I might have though it had a greater tone before, not sure, might be imagination, but still, the tap tone is really nice and it rings for like 2-3 seconds or so.
from just a viewing it, how do you think it looks ?


Hesh, we wrote in the same time !! again, Thanks for the kind words. Good to know I am in somog... league ;) :D .

Lars.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:37 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:28 pm
Posts: 133
Location: Massachusetts
Hey Lars... i liked it better before... can you put some back on? gaah

Ok, i know i'm gonna get kicked for this but... those lower two braces and the tone bars...... usually they as not perfectly parallel. Lars's looks pretty, but is there any reason to angle them differently? I'm hoping "No" for Lars's mental health.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:02 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:26 am
Posts: 1041
Location: sweden
First name: Lars
Last Name: Stahl
City: Stockholm
Country: Sweden
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Rob, The bracing pattern is from Michael Payne:s SJ plan ! So the way they are angled are from that plan.
Also as I have come to understand from reading, reading reading, is that you want to make the top or "whole guitar" as light as possible but still with an optimal stiffness.
As I have seen from others on their first, the tops tend to be a bit "overbraced" and I guess so was mine ! atleast thats the impression I got when qritique was made "wish I am very happy for" one of the best way to learn !
Also Rob, I also I like the hights and sharp roundings etc as of before, but it might not have been the best thing for the sound as been mentioned.

Lars


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:48 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:47 am
Posts: 1244
Location: Montreal, Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
To me it looks fine now.

_________________
Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:56 pm 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian
Old Growth Brazilian

Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:56 am
Posts: 10707
Location: United States
Lars Stahl wrote:
Rob, The bracing pattern is from Michael Payne:s SJ plan ! So the way they are angled are from that plan.
Also as I have come to understand from reading, reading reading, is that you want to make the top or "whole guitar" as light as possible but still with an optimal stiffness.
As I have seen from others on their first, the tops tend to be a bit "overbraced" and I guess so was mine ! atleast thats the impression I got when qritique was made "wish I am very happy for" one of the best way to learn !
Also Rob, I also I like the hights and sharp roundings etc as of before, but it might not have been the best thing for the sound as been mentioned.

Lars

Hmmmm? there should be 2 1/8" inside between them at the X brace and approximately 1 13/16" inside between them at the bout intersection. This is a bigger spread at the bout than most designs but works great on this guitar.


Last edited by Michael Dale Payne on Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:57 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:02 pm
Posts: 801
Location: United States
First name: Gene
Last Name: Zierdt
City: Sebastopol
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 95472
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Lars,

I think it looks fine. From all my reading, I've gotten the idea that just before you
go too far, and make the top too weak, you hear a flattening out/muddling/sound
gets sort of mushy. That's the point to stop. I equate that in mechanical vibrations
to lowering the "Q" (sharpness) of the main resonance, which will result in a more
even response across the sound spectrum, rather than favoring one frequency.

Sounds like you're hearing something like that. I'll bet it will sound great!!! And
whatever, it's the experience you gain on the first couple of guitars that is the
most valuable. The fact they usually sound good as well is a bonus.

_________________
Gene

Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason- Mark Twain


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:20 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:26 am
Posts: 1041
Location: sweden
First name: Lars
Last Name: Stahl
City: Stockholm
Country: Sweden
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Michael. I was referring to the angle not how I have carved them ! And the angle of the braces are from your plane, as close as I possibly could, but I have carved the them in from the edge a bit more than the plan says on.
Here is a photo on the bracings before starting to carve "accept for the X. This is by your plan. Its a good camparizon to the Now and then. [:Y:]

Lars.[/attachment]
Attachment:
prebrace.jpg
[attachment=0]bracingnew4.jpg


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:28 pm 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian
Old Growth Brazilian

Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:56 am
Posts: 10707
Location: United States
I was not referring to the carving. I was referring to the space between the tone bars. At the X-brace there should be 2 1/8" between them. Where the tone bars intersect the linings at the lower bout there should be 1 13/16" between them. Yours appear to be perfectly parallel to each other. They should be closer to each other at the lining than at the X-brace. but that is not a big issue they will be fine as you have them.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:31 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:59 pm
Posts: 2103
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Country: Romania
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Looks much better now.

_________________
Build log


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:37 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:26 am
Posts: 1041
Location: sweden
First name: Lars
Last Name: Stahl
City: Stockholm
Country: Sweden
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Michael, here is a photo from Stew macs "plans" page
Attachment:
Small_Jumbo_Guitar_Plans_Detail2.jpg


To my eyes its as I have it braced ! ?? "photo is before I thinned the braces"

Lars.
Attachment:
bracing3.jpg


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:49 pm 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian
Old Growth Brazilian

Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:56 am
Posts: 10707
Location: United States
Pretty darn close. If you followed all the dimensions on the top bracing plan then you will find that the tone bars are slightly closer to each other at the lining than they are at the X-brace. You may very well have them this way but if you did not follow all dimensions you could easily have them truly parallel. The key dimensions to avert the parallel issue is the two long dimensions at the right side of th top bracing pattern and the 2 1/8" dimensions at the tone bar to Xbrace intersection. if you followed thes then the tone bars are not parallel, they will be approx 5/16 closer to each other at the lining.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:05 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:57 pm
Posts: 636
Location: Nr London, UK
Micheal in the originals where the tone bars taper towards each other as you move towards the lining, is this to make the area below the bottom tone bar looser? And what'd be the detriment to having parallel.

_________________
Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:04 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:49 pm
Posts: 1209
Location: Ukiah, CA
Lars, it looks a lot better now. That should open up the sound and improve the tonal balance.

_________________
Ken Franklin
clumsy yet persistent
https://www.kenfranklinukulele.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:27 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:41 am
Posts: 606
Location: LaCrosse WI
First name: Jason
Last Name: Moe
City: LaCrosse
State: WI
Zip/Postal Code: 54601
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
On a 1st guitar, i'd rather over-brace and last a lifetime, than under-brace and have something break and loose it. To me, as a beginner, I was happy to get one put together. The next one i'm being a little more creative and daring. I noticed too that the bracing is all the way to the edge of the plate. The sides need a place to sit. You'll proboly have to trim the ends a bit. I might build differently too, who know's. Good luck!

_________________
Jason Moe
LaCrosse WI 54601


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:07 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:26 am
Posts: 1041
Location: sweden
First name: Lars
Last Name: Stahl
City: Stockholm
Country: Sweden
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
First, Thank you all for the replies.

Jason, about over braced I was not saying its wrong on a first, all though, I am shooting for as a perfekt guitar as I can get. even if its my first ! I "personally" would not like to have a guitar that lasted a lifetime, and sounded bad or just "ok" would prefer to have one that lasted years sounding great. and if it were to break then I would probobly learn something from it. If you overbrace on purpose then its a different thing, but if you do it because you simply didnt have enough experience or "know how" then I would feel its the wrong approach. But in the end we are all different, so my way might not be anothers. :)
about the bracings being all the way to the ends, well the X is to be under the kerfing, and so is the big one over the soundhole, the tonebars are tapered to nothing and so are the fingers.
But thanks for mentioning this, I see know I have forgotten to carve the ends on the flat brace on the top. :oops:

Sincerely Lars.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:42 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:13 am
Posts: 281
Location: Los Angeles
gozierdt wrote:
Lars,

I think it looks fine. From all my reading, I've gotten the idea that just before you
go too far, and make the top too weak, you hear a flattening out/muddling/sound
gets sort of mushy. That's the point to stop. I equate that in mechanical vibrations
to lowering the "Q" (sharpness) of the main resonance, which will result in a more
even response across the sound spectrum, rather than favoring one frequency.

Sounds like you're hearing something like that. I'll bet it will sound great!!! And
whatever, it's the experience you gain on the first couple of guitars that is the
most valuable. The fact they usually sound good as well is a bonus.

I agree with the muddling/flattening out/mushy tone. I find it's a pretty distinct drop. (Cumpiano actually mentions this on his webiste, but it doesn't seem many people have noticed. He says: "At the end of the process all I hear is predominantly low and flappy, unfocused sounds. I know it sounds like a paradox--that I should be trying to extinguish the musical sounds from the top--but remember that at that stage the top is a "free membrane" rather than a "clamped membrane" (the other pertinent acoustical model is a "stretched membrane" like a banjo head). When the edges of the top are eventually secured to the rigid sides of the guitar. The musicality returns, believe me."http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Newsletters/Issues/newsletter%2019.htm )

Lars, it looks good to me. Why not put it together and find out how it sounds? ;) I too think you'll have a nice sounding guitar.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:20 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:36 am
Posts: 7473
Location: Southeast US
City: Lenoir City
State: TN
Zip/Postal Code: 37772
Country: US
Focus: Repair
Lars, don't forget to drill a hole in the transverse brace for trussrod adjustment if you're using a rod that adjusts through the soundhole.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:59 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:28 pm
Posts: 133
Location: Massachusetts
And are you making a magic tone enhancer brace? From what i read, you may want to add it later - so if you make one now you're all set. I probably got the terminology wrong, but it's the brace that sits at the bottom of the bridge plate...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:07 pm 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian
Old Growth Brazilian

Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:56 am
Posts: 10707
Location: United States
John Hale wrote:
Micheal in the originals where the tone bars taper towards each other as you move towards the lining, is this to make the area below the bottom tone bar looser? And what'd be the detriment to having parallel.


One more time :D They are not and have never been truly parallel! They are in the same location they have always been in since I first released the OLF-SJ The lower tone bar tapers towards the upper tone bar as it approaches the linings. but not as much as many builders do. The reason for the wider spread at the linings is base/mid tone response. When I designed this body I built three prototypes out of Sitka/ Mahogany and varied the bracing pattern on each. One was a shallower X and steep tone bar arrangement. the Second was the X we have now with the tone bars closer at the linings and more towards the tail and the current version The current version had the best balance between mid tone and bass. The first was prototype was too loose in on the bass side and sounded a bit muddy. the second was good but mid tone seemed a bit week and I loved the third.

Once again the tone bars taper towards each other at the linings by about 3/8" form X to lining. They are not true parallel [headinwall] laughing6-hehe


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:17 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 3:37 am
Posts: 2670
Location: United States
First name: John
Last Name: Mayes
City: Norman
State: OK
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I don't think they looked bad before. Of course what the heck can the peanut gallery add from just looks. General comments yes, but your the one with the top in your hands. Either way they both LOOK fine.

_________________
John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com