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Which is better a bending iron or one of the bending forms for side bending.

Mike

Get them both. It depends on what you want to build and the learning curve. Not that one is better then the other. I think most people have both these days.

I agree with Chris - both are useful but I use my Fox style bender for all side bending these days - it's just so much easier........ My bending pipe is relegated to bending odd shapes in binding and one-off things.

If you get/build a Fox or Doolin style bender a blanket is way easier IMHO than light bulbs too and will help ensue your success and possibly save a side or two.

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Ann Arbor Guitars

http://bluescreekguitars.com/tutorial10.php
This link will show you how to bend using the machine. Irons work but there is a skill that needs to be learned. Learning to bend isn't easy but it isn't impossible. Most beginners mistakes are in the timing. Waiting too long , you will case harden the wood and cause cracking , trying to make the wood bend before it is ready will also make it crack. Wood has to allow cells to compact so you can bend the wood . Wood cell don't stretch , so use that information when learning to bend.
Some woods need more heat and less water than others so keep a log as you bend to you can identify your techniques success.
good luck
john hall

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

There are advantages and disadvantages to both, but I personally think it's important to learn how to bend on an iron and it always helps to have one for touchups if nothing else.

I heard that you still get ripples in the sides even when using a bending machine. I can't recall where I got that from but....

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There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.

Unless you plan to build a lot of guitars, I would encourage you to do all your bending by hand on a pipe. You can learn it, and you need to learn it anyway, because there will always be situations where a bending machine won't suffice. I think you gain a better understanding of the nature of wood when you bend by hand - I don't mean an intellectual understanding so much as a "felt sense"... a deeper, more instinctive/intuitive/visceral familiarity and mastery. This will serve you well throughout the process. Plus, it's fun! Take the bull by the horns and sink your teeth into one of the coolest, most satisfying parts of guitar building! You can even get quite fast at it if you practice.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I think for my next few I am going to stick with the hot iron. Just ordered some Super Soft 2. Gonna try it. My current build is figured Mahogany so I may need it. I only have one set so can't screw them up.....I'm livin on the edge peope!

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There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.

I may be following you on the pipe bend Sniggly. I bent some Koa sides with a bending machine and light bulbs. I soaked the sides and ended up with ripples. Even if I get a blanket and build a proper building machine I still would like to know that I can bend on a pipe. Keep us posted on your progress.

John

If you are going to get an Ibex then check out PilgrimsProjects.biz that's where I got mine. I've also read that the Doolin bender keeps the ripples down. You might want to check it out. I'd book mark this link if I were you. I just found it this morning. Great stuff in there. Mike's the jig master and builds a nice guitar too.
http://www.doolinguitars.com/articles/
Chris I wish I knew you wanted SSII. I have a gal. arriving Monday that I think I'm not going to need.

The bending machine gets my vote. I only know of one professional who bends on a pipe, and that's only because they like the sensory experience of it. Many of us use the machine because we don't trust our skill, many because it's more efficient, many of us because the results are consistent. People usually use a pipe because they're doing a unique cutaway shape they don't have (or want to make) the forms for, and that comes later down the line.

I use Mike Doolin's design, for what it's worth, without the spring arm. I like registering the side at the butt. The spring arm is to help keep tension in the slats, which prevents ripples and supports against cracking. I haven't had those problems (so far) with the sides I've bent.

I'm starting to think about a way to convert my Fox bender towards the Doolin style with 2 arms sorta like a cross between the Fox / Doolin / Taylor bender. Locate from the end of the lower bout in the slat with a pin and an arm at that end and a spring tension arm at the upper bout end. With 2 blankets for heat.

Both techniques work. Most issues with the bender , isn't the bender but the technique. For the bending machine to work well , you have to make the bender PRESS the wood. I don't do the waist first , but last. You do the lower bout , then the upper bout , that way as you drive down the waist cawl , this let the wood become under tension. You can actually see the set hug the pattern for a more accurate bend.
If you have a bad piece of wood , it won't matter if you bend on the pipe or the bender. Having a different design than the fox style , the waist ripples are gone on my machine. The cawl is in the patent process. Also DO NOT take the set out until it has cooled and dried. The nature of figured wood , is that is has alot of run out , this is what gives the wood the figure , so you have to be patient.
Good luck , Take your time and have fun. That is what this is about .
I bent about 6 sets a week. I use 2 bender in my shop and I don't own a hot pipe
john hall
blues creek guitars

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I understand that you have to use a pipe for Mandos and Ukes and fiddles. Is that just because of the size of the bender is to large ? Would you only have to build a bender smaller for those. Or is it just as fast to pipe bend them?
I haven't built any yet but sooner or later...

One nice thing about the pipe is you can make it on the cheep. I just built one using a 2"x6" steel plumbing "nipple" and the guts from a 250w halogen lamp. Grand total cost was around $18.

I was about to say that if you're always making a different guitar you'd be better off with a pipe, but if you were careful, you could probably use the off cut from the outside mold as the form for the bending machine. Does anyone do that now?

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
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That's how I do mine and I also make the spreader cauls from it too. No waste no want.

Here you go.I also got a lower and upper bout spreader from it.

If you are going to build many guitars using the same few shapes, then a bending machine may be more efficient. For a factory, machine bending makes sense from an efficiency standpoint. With practice, though, bending by hand can be very fast and very reliable, and there are, in fact, a lot of builders who bend all their sides by hand.

I think the main reason why so many beginner and hobbyist builders invest so much in the far more complicated system of machine bending - building (or buying, expensively) the machine, making the forms, setting up the blankets with the timers and the temp controls, learning to use the thing, etc - is because of a widespread perception that bending by hand is very difficult. I think this is a mistake. If the same amount of time were invested in practicing bending by hand on a pipe, the skill would be mastered, and the machine would be unnecessary.

The machine has limitations that your hands do not have. If your skills limit you to machine bending, sooner or later you're going to find yourself in a jam. Lars' thread about his broken side is a case in point. After being bent on a machine, his sides had sprung back badly. If he had worked them on a pipe to make them fit his mold, there would have been no problem. I don't mean to pick on Lars, I'm just using that as an example. I can't imagine building guitars without doing at least some bending by hand.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

The Koa sides I bent were for a uke, so you can use a machine for smaller stuff. You just need to build it smaller. My big problems were not as much with using a bending machine, but in not understanding how the process actually works. I read lots of conflicting info from writers/builders who had different systems. Some said to soak over night. Some said to soak for 45 min. Some said just to sprits with water as it bent. I got the bend done OK. I had some problems with my design of the bender (which was a Doolin style). I just didn't have enough structural support. I also don't think I had enough heat to cook the sides and even if I did, I didn't leave them in the bender long enough. Basically I learned a lot about the process from that and my sides actually came out pretty good in the end. I think in the long run I am going to use a fox style bender with a heat blanket. It just makes a lot of sense with repeatable results. But I still want to know how to bend with a pipe. Just in case.

One of the first questions I get when someone sees the uke I built is "how did you get the shape in the sides?" For me it was one of the more stressful parts of the build. In hindsight I should have just relaxed.

And if you can’t tell I’m trying to talk myself into trying it with a pipe.

Don't stress out over it. Buy some cheaper wood to practice on. I bought some flatsawn mahogany to practice on for my side bender. Better to work it out on that before the good stuff. If you want alot of good practice then by a board from woodcraft or somewhere and get your practice in on re sawing too. That's what I did. But I was still a bit stressed when it came to re sawing a $425 piece of claro walnut. I saved the bad bent sides and will use them to practice on the Ibex. Heck, I might be able to get them to work after all.

...and yet the vast majority of even handbuilders I see today are using some form of fox bender, often in conjunction with a traditonal pipe for touchups and the like. There are a number of good reasons not to bend on a pipe, by hand, which I'll get into below.



Honestly, I think building with forms and molds (which are dirt cheap to make - a sheet of MDF will provide everything you need for more than one set of molds, and it doesn't take much more than a day to make a basic bending setup) gives you better (by which I mean more reliable, more symmetrical) results than any handbending will. At least, if you're me; I can and have hand-bent for practice purposes, and it teaches you a lot about how wood moves and reacts, and you can then move right along to the land of bending forms and molds.

The setup is simpler than you make it sound - a timer and temp control are simply safety features, and easily implemented. Learning to use the thing is pretty trivial with all the info out there, but as with anything, practicing on scrap is a must.



...and I agree both tools are good to have, although I must admit I tend to just jury-rig up a pipe bender when I need one, and don't have a dedicated one. But benders (and molds, and dishes) make creating perfectly fitting, symmetrical parts just that much easier, and don't take away from the enjoyment of building. I still think you're significantly more likely to crack or break sides hand-bending, particuarly if you try building with exotic, high-figure woods, than you are using a heat blanket.

Well, I'm not giving my 2 cents here because I don't have 2 cents yet to give. BUT, I do have no money and a nice piece of steel tubing and a blow torch ready to go. So, any of you out there reading this, send up a prayer for me on my first attempt at bending sides - I'm heading out to try after I finish typing this. (i'll practice a bit first and hope that my straight grained IRW is not toooo bad to learn on.)

Thanks all for the info on both irons and machines.
justin

If you are going to build a mold and spreaders then the bending form is a no brainer and what else would you do with the cut outs. I think the bender is just another jig to improve the end product. What do you think the percentage is of those who use building molds and use a bender is ?

Ok, that was short lived...

I got all my stuff set up. Got my pipe up to temp (250ish F) and started practice building some small pieces of walnut.

But, my plans were soon FOILED!!!!! The blow torch I was using got too cold and quit blowing nice hot flames and started blowing out orange/firey billowy flames. There was ice forming on the torch tube near the valve so I imagine it was turning my nice propane into liquid and not burning too well.

Any thoughts?? (SHould I just start a new thread?...) I don't think I can keep it unthawed long enough to get a side done. So... maybe look for a new blow torch? Or a different method of keeping the pipe hot... Thanks for any advice guys.

I resawed some hardwood I had in my shop and bent it on an electric bending iron and actually it has been working out ok. I found that for this wood I needed to bend it then stick it in my form for an hour or so while it cooled then I could go back and get rid of any ripples. The next challenge will be bending the real sides not just practice pieces. I may at some point in the future build a Fox style bender but for now I think I will keep working on bulding my experience doing it by hand. Thanks for all the input.

Mike